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How much does a crash reduce the value of a machine?

Comatose

Titanium
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Location
Akron, OH
I was heading up to a local machine tool dealer to look at a demo machine they were planning to change out for a new one. About a year old, 600 on hours, 30 cutting hours.

10 minutes before I get there I get a call "yeah, you probably shouldn't come up, we crashed it..."

Well hell, I was only 10 minutes away, so I went anyway. Seems sales guy and apps guy were running a demo piece without taking the vise handle off. So they managed to bend both doors, break a weld on the sheet metal of the door, bend both tracks the doors run on and also bend the front sheet metal the tracks attach to. The vise was off center so I have some concern whether they knocked the table out of alignment too, but I haven't checked yet. On the one hand this is a machine with 40mm ball screws, so probably it didn't hurt the screw. On the other hand this is a machine with 5hp axis motors so maybe it did. Sounded okay but who knows. Would have a new warranty, but those don't necessarily cover crash damage.

They're sure they can fix it. I feel like it probably won't be quite right afterwards, but everything is worth something.

This is a machine that street price with options is about 125, before it crashed I was about 90% sure I would buy it as a demo machine at the offered 110. Assuming they bend it back rather than replace the doors, tracks and covers, now what's it worth? I'm feeling 100, but maybe I am being to hard on them or pessimistic.

On the other hand, they did put a handle though the door, which is the VMC version of leaving the lathe handle in the chuck...
 
Well if they fix the cosmetic bits, doubts may be still exist on what hidden damage there is.
If they could get the testing regime the manufacturer uses to test it i think that would get rid of most doubts.
Cracked items not fully cracked through thats another issue...
Surely they could not sell it without disclosing the crash to a potential purchaser.

or the issue for you how can you remove doubts on it and let them have some doubts themselves to bargain it down at bit.

Are you a good machine tool repairer would be the key item i think, had plenty of practical experience in the factory who makes the units? Knows its weak spots? and another key item who fixes it in the future if there are calibration and physical issues not picked up before sale?

Mostly i think you would know these points but write a list price some parts / labour as a contingency if its not up to standard. Then the contingency is the discount with risk quantified.
 
The next time I see a machine that has not been crashed, it will be the first time. Weld/hammer/paint and move on. Not a big deal.

When you start seeing cracked castings and bent screws and non-rebuildable spindle cartridges, then it's time to be concerned. I used to work with 2 different Okuma lathes that were crashed so hard they cracked the X axis ways. One bent a spindle, the other bent a ball screws. Both were repaired and made good parts for many years.
 
I find it pretty funny someone left the vise handle on. I assume it slowly worked itself from the 'tightening' position to being perpendicular to the doors?? If so that's even better. :D One shop I worked at we hired an "expert" mill guy, awesome resume, lots of 'skills'. I think he was there a week or two and did the same thing. Brand new machine, maybe 2 months old. Not as bad as what you are describing, but bent the door frame a bit and cracked the plexiglass/lexan (whatever it is).

While I'm at it, same guy scaled a print, ya the first thing you learn as a machinist, and cut a mold base all fuc*ed up. :rolleyes5:
Sorry, no help to your problem....
 
the short answer is: If you are buying its a much bigger deal than if you are selling ( in a buyer's market like now).

I don't worry about the cosmetics much...... but it must be a pretty tight cabinet for the vise handle to be that close to the doors.
 
How much it devalues a machine is truly dependent on long term affects and that is difficult to measure.

I bought a very nice lathe. Looked brand new 10 years old 800 spindle cut hrs. Paid 34K for it. I am new to CNC programming and while I go through the programs at set up with my finger on the reset button and feeds all the way down, you can't stop a turret change even if you are faster than the best gunslinger.

My rookie dumb ass didn't even think to have a huge Z offset during first program run in case turret changes while it is near the spindle. Turret changed and slammed a 3/4" boring bar into the chuck going 2500RPMs.

She still cuts with a nice finish. No taper and holds size, but the Spindle bearings purr like a kitten. Called mazak and was given a price of $10K plus labor to replace spindle.... so as it applies to my lathe, I lost $14K in value of my machine as far as I'm concerned.

I'm running the lathe and the bearing noise is going away, but I'm sure it won't go all the way away. That noise is a constant reminder to me.... so frustrating.
 
Sounds pretty much equivalent to a one or maybe two year old trade in, low hours, single shift work but environment battle scars from a "careless handling culture" shop.

Clive
 
How much it devalues a machine is truly dependent on long term affects and that is difficult to measure.

I bought a very nice lathe. Looked brand new 10 years old 800 spindle cut hrs. Paid 34K for it. I am new to CNC programming and while I go through the programs at set up with my finger on the reset button and feeds all the way down, you can't stop a turret change even if you are faster than the best gunslinger.

My rookie dumb ass didn't even think to have a huge Z offset during first program run in case turret changes while it is near the spindle. Turret changed and slammed a 3/4" boring bar into the chuck going 2500RPMs.

She still cuts with a nice finish. No taper and holds size, but the Spindle bearings purr like a kitten. Called mazak and was given a price of $10K plus labor to replace spindle.... so as it applies to my lathe, I lost $14K in value of my machine as far as I'm concerned.

I'm running the lathe and the bearing noise is going away, but I'm sure it won't go all the way away. That noise is a constant reminder to me.... so frustrating.
You don't have to replace the whole spindle if you have bad bearings.
My DMG Gildemeister's bearings were less than two grand plus labour. A good repairman replaced them in a day.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
 
You don't have to replace the whole spindle if you have bad bearings.
My DMG Gildemeister's bearings were less than two grand plus labour. A good repairman replaced them in a day.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Thanks for sharing. I hope you are right and I'll research this when I get closer. In the meantime, if anyone knows this to be true specifically for mazak qtn-100 please pm me.
 
...... but it must be a pretty tight cabinet for the vise handle to be that close to the doors.

I've seen lots of machines with damaged enclosures, doors, and way covers from vise handles flopping around or falling off and getting trapped between things.

One place got tired of it and press-fit a short 1/4" dowel pin in the ball of the handle. Then they made a cover for the cycle start switch with a 17/64 hole in it.....
 
At the very least they should do a ball-bar test with certified results to prove the machine meets OEM specs on all axis. If it checks out then do your original offer minus the cost of any new sheet metal needed to replace anything that didn't get repaired in a pristine manner.
 
Everything can be repaired so no issue there.

Warranty and service life maybe.

Look at aftermarket service plans like extended warranty insurance policy that would cover failures.

Look at what it is now and consider doing the body and fender work for substantial discount.

The unit should be discounted and the machine is worth the minimum they will take...

It all depends on after sale support and condition.

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