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How to tool up for under 100$

Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Location
West Coast
Generally on here, people post what they want to post and then deal with the commentary, invited or not. :)

Well, that I certainly agree with and do appreciate what you have to say. I would also hope that the OP would welcome people like you to comment, so if we get to a point that people can't comment, we might have more serious problems that are widespread elsewhere.

Let's try this conversation once again, maybe we can all learn from it?

I'm still a bit unclear how the cutter becomes a hogging cutter. It seems like a facing tool with a smaller diameter.
 

G&L4nahalf

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Location
Temporarily Florida
Geo complimenting Alan #58 ******

Alan protesting #60 "FYI, comments like that will loose you any credibility you have around here. X

Geo: yeah I knew it would :) but that something :scratchchin: kicked in on me and justice overruled your embarassment, other's jealousy, and my credibility :)

Alan further : What I'm not clear on is the smaller Bridgeport hogging cutter, it sounds like a single point also? Is the angle less steep than the larger cutters? I'm not clear how it hogs metal if it is a single point.

Geo confession : Alan I honestly do not know how this thing works. The first one I made was really for a test; to see if a welded lathe tool could stand up to high-speed - say over 1000 rpm. I wondered if the weld would hold; and second, if the tip would still stay on at high-speed interrupted cuts. I had used welded lathe tools a lot before in the HBM shops; but that was more on the order of a 3" bar x 3' w3' balance, running say around 40 rpm.

So, I very roughly eyeballed the test-proto-type shortened lathe tool to approx center. Admitting that I was shocked when the tool took off and went through a very deep cut like butter.... Some of the mill-men saw me using it occasionally; and started asking to borrow it. I decided to make another more carefully, for safety reasons, but on purpose disregarded precision centering for the carbide tip. It made absolutely no difference; they always cut the same..

I made another 2 or 3 of the smaller ones; and then a complete set - all by eyeballing the carbide end on the center-line of the bolt-head. No change in top performance in any of them. So all that I learned new, was that a precision center-line location of the tool-tip to the c/l of the spindle apparently has about nothing to do with performance. Hence, I don't understand :confused:

Not sure what you mean by single-point, this set-up is in principle, basically a flycutter..

:) Geo
 

G&L4nahalf

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Location
Temporarily Florida
Fun Time

Some fun time

This morning I woke up and the seas were calm after yesterday's storm. Few left-over clouds after a beautiful sunrise, and it is a slight balm with the promise of a beautiful day. So for all those who might wish to join me on my imaginary ship, I'd like to pass on some fun news; that will allow you fellow passengers to have a great time with me. :)

Almost unbelievable, right after I started this very thread, I received word of a development that would fulfill the dreams of every person contemplating starting up their own shop. My source is ultra-reliable.

It is an on-going development, and I'm inviting all the positive thinkers to join me on my imaginary ship; but we all will be participating in influencing the outcome of a real event - that will be the fun part.

Like all these potential major developments in the real world, this one has of course; the potential for falling apart, therefore I've invited positive thinkers to join. It will be bad enough if we have to go through a let-down-crash; without the added pain of being subjected to a bunch of gloating skeptics telling us they knew it all-along - nothing good ever happens. So steel yourselves all those on-board, we do not know what the outcome will be.. Adversity will be lurking behind every twist and turn. We are going into battle.. The battle of the business world.

The ultimate tool-up for less than 100$ === Fri September 26, 2014 10:00 AM EST

The nearly unbelievable word I got was that there was a one-man shop available for hauling off.

This is not a junk shop.

I know this shop for now going on about 10 years. Have been at it for a number of times.

The set up : this is the support facility for a person who has the means for expensive hobbies. Think combination of Jay Leno-Howard Hughes. He wants to move his operation quite a distance, with all new facilities. Including new machines. I'm thinking that he would just like to walk away from what he has now, and let someone else clean up the mess.

He has in his employ, a part-time machinist on call for what might be just a quick job for a few minutes in a month, or a major project that may take a few weeks. Apparently, as soon as the project is finished, he inspects the work, and if all is satisfactory, he dismisses the machinist.. So, apparently the man is off the clock, and does not get paid for machine clean-up, further - he couldn't clean up if he wanted to; the owner is leaving immediately. Hence, the machinery is quite grungy, but has extremely low hours.

I'm inviting all you on board to participate in decisions and discussions. Beware : a thief may sneak in and steal it from us.

We have as I see it, 3 areas of concern.

1. Negotiations. 2. Transport. 3. The new home.

I have good starts on all 3, but all need some further work to finalize. That's where your input comes in.

I'm including two photos - normally I have a most strict rule to not supply pictures because of the possibility that someone may doubt my word and integrity unless I have pictures to prove it, and therefore I would want nothing further to do with them. In this case they were taken by my source; who is the 4th man in the intermediary chain between me and the owner.

My tentative plan is : if we get them, and after they're spiffed up and supplied with some tooling, possibly move them to a new location again, and then you can come and run them and go to work on your own special projects. What do you think ?

So, looking forward to seeing you all as you come on board; and welcome, Geo
:)

Bridgeport from Jr..jpg

lathe from Jr..jpg
 

alskdjfhg

Diamond
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Location
Houston TX
Geo, as I'm in school right now, I can't read your post very thoroughly. So if you address this or I am misunderstanding your post, I apologize.

But I don't think this is a very fair competition. Mainly because different areas are doing different things. So even though the machines are ubiquitous, the work they will de doing may not be the same.

Although, as a crazy person trying to build a shop, I'm paying close attention.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Location
West Coast
Not sure what you mean by single-point, this set-up is in principle, basically a flycutter..

Well, I'm using it in the sense that you have a single cutter, as you mention, like a fly cutter. As long as the shank is concentric the cutter will be able to face. The way a fly cutter is used is for facing, where the single cutter is spinning around and the table is traversed to leave a smoot finish.

In your description you are using the cutters for hogging out material, and it sounds like you are boring when you are hogging out material. IOW, you are not cutting the face, but hogging out material. I don't understand how the geometry of a fly cutter can perform that task. If you do any type of boring with a fly cutter, won't it have a trepanning effect where it would cut the circumference of a circle with the single point?

Cheers,
Alan
 

kgize

Cast Iron
Joined
Jan 24, 2009
Location
Austin Texas USA
Hard to tell if anyone already asked this - as reading the thread for real information became difficult...but in OP the Original Poster asked:
"If there's further interest, I'll submit more"
So yes - I have further interest - specifically I liked your info to make V blocks...please submit more...
 

tdmidget

Diamond
Joined
Aug 13, 2005
Location
Tucson AZ
Are we in the same country ?

Now I know for a certainty that the ones that I made at one time or another virtually every last single component for - and in several manufacturing shops, and did repair and rebuild in several other shops; cannot all have been replaced with India technology, in the last 25 years. Because they will run indefinitely as long as kept under power.

1400 deg steam @ ~2000psi entering the first phase @ ~950 deg. F.

Are you talking about water turbines ? If so, then you are right; I know little about them.

If this is what has happened to the steam-turbine industry, then GOD help us all...

Mr know-it-all with your primitive technology.. From Bombay ?

Apparently you cannot even decide what your steam conditions are.
And no, not Bombay. I was thinking of the GE units at my local nuke plant.
 

G&L4nahalf

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Location
Temporarily Florida
G&L4nahalf said:
Are we in the same country ?

Now I know for a certainty that the ones that I made at one time or another virtually every last single component for - and in several manufacturing shops, and did repair and rebuild in several other shops; cannot all have been replaced with India technology, in the last 25 years. Because they will run indefinitely as long as kept under power.

1400 deg steam @ ~2000psi entering the first phase @ ~950 deg. F.

Are you talking about water turbines ? If so, then you are right; I know little about them.

If this is what has happened to the steam-turbine industry, then GOD help us all...

Mr know-it-all with your primitive technology.. From Bombay ?

Apparently you cannot even decide what your steam conditions are.
And no, not Bombay. I was thinking of the GE units at my local nuke plant.

Ahhh very low pressure steam w/low temp.. The coal plants exit the 326SS Super-heater tubes @1400 then when the steam expands in the 1st stage it drops to 950.

btw, I worked on the nuke reactor pots, 6" thick, 42' dia ~20' tall. Mine went to Oregon. Took a year to build.
 

G&L4nahalf

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Location
Temporarily Florida
Well, I'm using it in the sense that you have a single cutter, as you mention, like a fly cutter. As long as the shank is concentric the cutter will be able to face. The way a fly cutter is used is for facing, where the single cutter is spinning around and the table is traversed to leave a smoot finish.

In your description you are using the cutters for hogging out material, and it sounds like you are boring when you are hogging out material. IOW, you are not cutting the face, but hogging out material. I don't understand how the geometry of a fly cutter can perform that task. If you do any type of boring with a fly cutter, won't it have a trepanning effect where it would cut the circumference of a circle with the single point?

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan, this tool works just like a 4 fluted end mill or a hogging mill where the teeth are staggered; except the way it is angled, it does not cut 90 deg to the face but on an angle. We might think of an angled router bit cutting a groove down the middle of a board. Pretty much the same. So yes, the bottom of the cut will be faced, and if you wanted to - you could for example face off the entire piece with this tool; the same way you would with a conventional 4 fluted end mill.

The thing is : the carbide hogger's speed is better than 1100 rpm vs HSS @ 160 (?); and at that speed, the machine does not have time to pick up harmonics. I think :)

I have enclosed a not too good sketch; maybe it will help you some :cool:

cutting tool schematic.jpg
 

Davis In SC

Diamond
Joined
Sep 14, 2005
Location
South Carolina USA
My take on this entire Thread/argument.. G&L burst into the room, thinking this was a hobby-type place, trying to make a grand appearance.. Came on way too strong, and stepped on some toes.. The first long post sort of raised my hackles, but that is not difficult to do...

A newcomer to any place is better off to test the waters, and start off slowly, rather than jumping in and trying to be top dog on day one.. JMHO, BTW.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Location
West Coast
My take on this entire Thread/argument.. G&L burst into the room, thinking this was a hobby-type place, trying to make a grand appearance.. Came on way too strong, and stepped on some toes.. The first long post sort of raised my hackles, but that is not difficult to do...

A newcomer to any place is better off to test the waters, and start off slowly, rather than jumping in and trying to be top dog on day one.. JMHO, BTW.

Davis,

I agree, and that has never worked out very well on PM despite the content. ;)

I think it is what it is, nothing more, nothing less. If folks try some of the ideas, that initiative is up to them. I like some of the ideas a lot, just that I think it makes sense to invest time wisely, and have cutters to perform the tasks of some of the ideas, so unless I was just wanting to DIY for the heck of it, I already have a solution in most cases.

Where I do see some merit is if I was at someone else's shop and they didn't have a tool, maybe we could make one.

Cheers,
Alan
 

G&L4nahalf

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Location
Temporarily Florida
Support for Layout and Precision Measuring

Some Interesting statistics : This thread was started Sept 18, 2014 (11 days). It has consistently stayed in the top 10 threads, more often than not - in the top 5, and more than it's share in the #1 position. It has had 3,885 views, 73 replies, and 116 likes. I think these numbers are impressive, and am nearly overwhelmed by the good response in interest on this topic.

I have had a large number of requests - including those private - to continue the thread. The positive responses are outnumbering the negative by better than 4 to 1. I count negatives as 1 vote if they are from the same person; no matter how often that critic posts.

In view of all this, I am going to try if at all possible to continue. Keeping ever in my mind, the small 1 man start-up general job shop - on a frugal budget - but hoping some of this may be useful to all. For the man with deep pockets, I doubt that he would find much of interest here. Above all, I am well aware that probably every reader might have a better way to do something. Please, please jump in with your suggestion. It will be better for everybody.

If all goes well, I hope soon to add a table of contents to the first post. This should be of help to see what all is included in our thread, and go quickly to that post.

Starting the small job shop, I think it is normal to quickly get into repair jobs. There are a lot of fabrication jobs out there, but I don't think it is fair to the customer to do experimental techniques on his work. Better to get your technique down good on your own projects first. Also, it is fairly easy to bid on small-lot vendor jobs; but keep in mind, a 200 piece job probably looks attractive to some CNC people. So, I'm keeping in mind the less than a dozen lot jobs. It may come as a surprise to the start up, to quickly find out that many of the repair jobs really have tight tolerances. This is what will determine reputation, and ultimately success; how well a person can identify the precise tolerance needed and deliver that. So, with all this said, I'll attempt to pass on some tips for an infrastructure that should be helpful in achieving a quality performance.

Much of the following may seem elementary, but if you please bear with me it will all come together.

WORK BENCHES : One of the beautiful things about a small start-up shop, is that it is possible to design benches custom made to your unique body. Why should a tall man have to bend over and work in pain? A short man on his toes? When your shop grows and you order new benches, you can let your apprentice kids use yours. They will really like it when you sit down and work with them. A good motivator. I like 4X4 wood legs on a wood bench, but if you have run into a scrap-pile of angle iron, that may be your way to go. When my son and I started up about 15 years ago, unbelievable; a large corporation gave him 6 pickup loads of new lumber that they wanted out of their way. 2X4s, 4X4s, plywood etc. We went with 2 L 2X4 legs because we didn't have a saw big enough to make 1 cut through the 4X4s. 2 layers of plywood with of course the good side up. Then we found some special kitchen "counter-top" adhesive sheets at the home-improvement on discount. This was one of the luckiest things I've stumbled into. Those "counter-top" sheets worked better than our wildest dreams. We did a quick power-sand on the plywood before we laid the tough plastic on. Total cost with a box of wood screw-bolts used on 3 benches and some left over, and special top - I think under $20 a piece. The bench with a vice has withstood numerous sledge-hammer work through the years; we like to make our own custom brackets etc., with the rose-bud and hammer. That bench is still solid.

We also made about 6 roll-around cabinets on roller castors. ~3' wide X 20"? deep ~6' tall. Each cabinet is for a special purpose - shop supplies, electrical, mechanic tools, hand power tools etc. Since our work was machine rebuild, it was really handy to wheel a couple of cabinets right to the job even in our small shop of 1000 sq ft. With a trouble light hung on the cabinet and a "clamp-on" light for the work. They are painted and stencil labeled, and I think look as good as most shops or better. It sure is a handy way to work..

PRELIMINARY LAY OUT BENCH : This is the bench that should be used to lay out parts before machining, for reference only. For example, the V-block job that I put in the first post. Were I to start that job tomorrow, after I had cut that part out with the torch and dressed up the faces and then milled the faces and blued, I would put such work on the preliminary bench and take a paper template for reference and with the plate sitting flat on the table, slide the template around the top of the plate finding the best compromise for clean-up machining, and mark out the corner dimensions on the plate. This saves a some-times disaster, and always gives you peace of mind while you're working. And above all, only takes a moment. The above design of the bench with the special top material is ideal, and as a great surprise to us, has took terrible abuse and still shows no dents or cuts. On top of that, it is super easy to clean making it look new. Somehow the material absorbs sharp edges and springs back. I've long ago forgotten the name but maybe I could find out. Not thinking far enough ahead, we probably should have made ours square instead of rectangular. I don't think it is desirable to use precision layout instruments at this stage; for myself I use carpenter's squares, 24" flex thin steel rule, and a builder's 48"? rule; because you are working with slag on the sides of the parts, and nothing has to be that precise for just a reference.

PRECISION LAY OUT PLATE : The one I enjoyed using the most was an antique 6' sq cast-iron with reinforcement ribs on the bottom. But woe to me if someone were to get on it not knowing what they were doing. I really don't see much choice on this but a granite plate. At this point maybe it would be good to stop and think what our objective is.. It most probably is to check .001, more rarely .0005 and the occasional .0001. A 3 millionths plate is not necessary for these type of measurements. For smaller work, a harbor-freight job should do just fine. For larger, I would suggest an auction where a grungey plate is cocked on it's side against an old rusty part. They'll probably pay you to haul it off. If you had it inspected, and the inspector told you it had a 20 millionths twist - highly unlikely - that means in the small area you would normally be working in; you might be off 5 or 10 millionths.. ??? Before you take it, look it over carefully for metal flakes imbedded in the surface; if need be with a bright flashlight at an angle. They need to come out before you use it; and this is a tedious care job of much work with even just a handful of flakes. Aluminum is especially bad about it. If while taking them out, you left a microscopic hole, that should have about a zero effect on the quality of your work. Of course, a big corporation does not want to do this.. Then, when I brought it home, I.... would go through the granite plate maintenance literature and start to work. If it had a chip on one side, make that side the rear side etc. I have built several resting tables for large granite plates in my time. Angle iron frame with ~3/8" clearance on all sides; a 3/4" plywood bed, and 4 heavy tubing legs. Pads on the bottom if your floor is in good smooth shape, without if on a kinda rough surface floor. I do not believe the sales pitch saying a 3 point support is the way to go. An easy way to lower your plate into the angle plate bed, is to stack up pallets to just under the table, and the top pallet with sturdy blocks extending through the gaps in your bed frame, lay the plate with plywood positioned correctly underneath the plate to the frame, on your safe supporting non-movable blocks, then raise the top pallet up with the fork truck just enough to pull out some pallets from the stack, then lower the plate into the bed with the fork-truck in the top pallet. Just lower gently. I don't like to hurry in these types of situations, but a half-hour to install the plate in it's bed seems to be excessive...

For large work it is necessary to improvise; and I one time did ~200 main rib wing-spars ~40' long from aluminum extrusion for as subcontractor with another shop for C 130 aircraft rebuilds. I used carpenter saw-horses for the final lay-out before machining with a Bridgeport and much work on each spar. With Govt inspection, my work had total acceptance. With big fabrications, I usually laid out on the machine. :)
 

Garwood

Diamond
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Location
Oregon
Tables, benches, office chairs, file cabinets are cheaper than dirt at auctions.

Large cast iron and steel tables don't seem to be advertised for sale often. I've found established dealers usually have or know who has such things local to you.

I have cut and welded some lndexable lathe toolholders to work in a pinch (CNC lathe) and also ground HSS blanks to run in the same machine. I've crashed boring bars and tigged up the insert seats and milled/filed/stoned them back into shape.

Sometimes when I blow the carbide seat out of an indexable holder or bar and don't have a backup I can get the tool through the job by stacking two inserts in the holder seat and adjusting the tool height.

I save different widths of the steel banding my materials are delivered with for setup shim material.

If you ever bend a big twist drill they usually bend where the taper shank meets the body. A bent MT4 shank will clean up into a nice 1.000" straight shank you can run in a 20N or a turret block. Same goes for the big MT5 and MT6 drill bits that go for cheap when nobody buying has that big of machine. Turn it into a straight shank.

If you need a size a little bigger than a twist drill drills at, grind one cutting edge longer than the other. The longer cutting edge X2 will be the new diameter.

Save small diameter dull/broken carbide endmills for drilling out melted HSS drills and taps.

I've made a lot of money with a piece of 220 grit sandpaper glued to a $50 3'X4' surface plate.

Endmills make great stubby boring bars.

WD40 sucks for loosening rusted fasteners or lubricating, but works great for everything else.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2007
Location
West Coast
Some Interesting statistics : This thread was started Sept 18, 2014 (11 days). It has consistently stayed in the top 10 threads, more often than not - in the top 5, and more than it's share in the #1 position. It has had 3,885 views, 73 replies, and 116 likes. I think these numbers are impressive, and am nearly overwhelmed by the good response in interest on this topic.

Do you actually look at statistics and/or create them for your threads?

I'm wondering if you're here for your ego...maybe smt smelled a fish...:scratchchin:

Cheers,
Alan
 

G&L4nahalf

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Location
Temporarily Florida
Budgetary constraints ?

That 100 bucks sure is getting spread mighty thin!

Hi Sami, yes, I was having fears that I was over budget. Another of my big flaws. Happens to me quite often.

After I got a few very touching private requests to continue, my plan was to start filling a box of tips, and let them pick and choose which they wanted :o Hoping others would join in :) which imo this thread has gotten some excellent contributions from others. My best tip imo, was the first tool; the hogger, which is without doubt a money maker and cost the lowest to make. However, it got the most criticism. Shame no one wanted to try it out:scratchchin:

btw, I always keep a keen eye out for the posts from the English members; finding it of great interest and love to ponder over the British techniques.

Maybe you'll help get it back on budget:) I thought you had good input

George
 

G&L4nahalf

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Location
Temporarily Florida
G&L4nahalf; said:
Shame no one wanted to try it out
George


Been meaning to make one myself actually just to try it out.

Got to hog a bit of material with my Index 645. Nothing super huge, but would take forever with an endmill (don't have a face mill).

:):):):):) Matt I'm giving you the 5 star award for response on this thread :cool:

Maybe you could make it one of your college projects; then find a pal that is good in marketing.. I pass on to you all rights to do as you want with it, without any claims or reservations what-so-ever. If it looks good to you, let me know and I will formalize that. You may be interested to know, that I designed it for the Index:)

btw did you get my emails about those big jobs for a Bridgeport ?

g
 








 
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