How would a shooting war effect manufacturing in Europe?

[SeymourDumore]

Good on yah.

But you still have some catching up to do. Then again, could was I started sooner?

"Planting a tree in Israel" back in the day.

"Trees" were probably cannon shells and jet A, but I weren't picky.
The results came out OK.

And will again, 2014 onward.

Bill

You think you could just Fuck Off with the flowerlanguage for a little while please?

Few days perhaps?
Please?
There is some serious shit that's hitting the fan out there which affects real people!

 

[RC99]

i'm afraid ukraine might be lost

Of course it is lost.

What is in it for the US or Europe? Could you imagine soft western populations addicted to farcebook and reality TV shows putting up with their government's destroying their countries and putting their cushy first world lifestyle at risk to protect some country in as far as they are concerned outbackofbumfuckistan?

Especially when you look at all the little hitler wannabe's currently on the world leadership stage. The pandemic bought them out in droves.

Ukraine was silly for giving up their nuclear weapons. No-one is going to come to their aide.

 

[thermite]

Bill

You think you could just Fuck Off with the flowerlanguage for a little while please?

Few days perhaps?
Please?
There is some serious shit that's hitting the fan out there which affects real people!

Indeed. Very real.

Damned shame too many of you OTHERS are pleased to do nowt but virtue-signal and wring-hands over it, ain't it?

Then again, that's a many centuries long habit of fatalism and corruption that part of the world that modern Ukraine is finally showing it might just BREAK!

They did NOT "escape" a Soviet wasteland. Become new "passengers".. welcomed. To go on and posture and criticise .....from the safety of a new home .... provided by others ...who had fought to build it "in-place".

They stayed. To fight to CHANGE their patch of it. "in place".

Good on 'em, one and all!

Rest of you posturing "escapee" drama-queens can get yer own damned cawfee.

If it ain't too much of a "reality challenge" for yah ... to shoulder a fair share of OUR load... instead of whining about whom "other" isn't "doing enough" to solve the problems you ....left behind ... for others to deal with?

You see where you stand?

If you aren't part of the solution?

You are either part of the problem.

Or just another noisy bystander.

That.

Simple.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Especially when you look at all the little HITLER wannabe's currently on the world leadership stage. The pandemic bought them out in droves!

There, I have highlighted it!!!

 

[EmGo]

I DIDNT VOTE FOR THIS SHIT YOU FUCKING TWAT! let me break it down for you, democracy is when a MAJORITY votes for something, not EVERYONE. i told you several times that i'm NOT the majority you piece of shit fuckface.

In an effort to be fair I skimmed through about sixty pages of your posts. Lots of mentions of libtards, support for the canadian truckers blockade, claims that vaccines don't work and an interesting one that California taxes food (did you ever get that receipt to prove it ? because other than alcohol or toacco I've never paid a dime in tax at Safeway) ... and oh yeah, a lot of claims that there is no racism in the US and people who make $7.50 an hour deserve their crappy pay. I didn't see even one word of anti-militarism or acknowledgement that the US should not interfere in foreign countries.

I could still be wrong but seems unlikely. Seems a lot more likely that your attitude depends on whose ox is getting gored. But if you really despise the military, we can overlook a lot of other nonsense.

Found that tax receipt yet ?

Came across this, no idea if it is accurate but a different viewpoint than most here, by an Ozzie

Ukraine shrinks again - Pearls and Irritations

you keep going off mainstream media, i'll go off the information from friends and family that are seeing the events unfold firsthand.

I have no idea why you think that would work ? Everyone else who has never been within 1,000 miles of China knows a lot more about it than me. I'm sure the same is true for the Ukraine.

There is some serious shit that's hitting the fan out there which affects real people!

Absolutely ! This is not like when the US invaded Iraq or Afghanistan or any number of other small countries. These are real people, not gooks or rugheads !

 

[empower]

Of course it is lost.

What is in it for the US or Europe? Could you imagine soft western populations addicted to farcebook and reality TV shows putting up with their government's destroying their countries and putting their cushy first world lifestyle at risk to protect some country in as far as they are concerned outbackofbumfuckistan?

Especially when you look at all the little hitler wannabe's currently on the world leadership stage. The pandemic bought them out in droves.

Ukraine was silly for giving up their nuclear weapons. No-one is going to come to their aide.

their future, but perhaps they're too blind to see it coming. as putin is NOT stopping at ukraine.

 

[empower]

In an effort to be fair I skimmed through about sixty pages of your posts. Lots of mentions of libtards, support for the canadian truckers blockade, claims that vaccines don't work and an interesting one that California taxes food (did you ever get that receipt to prove it ? because other than alcohol or toacco I've never paid a dime in tax at Safeway) ... and oh yeah, a lot of claims that there is no racism in the US and people who make $7.50 an hour deserve their crappy pay. I didn't see even one word of anti-militarism or acknowledgement that the US should not interfere in foreign countries.

I could still be wrong but seems unlikely. Seems a lot more likely that your attitude depends on whose ox is getting gored. But if you really despise the military, we can overlook a lot of other nonsense.

Found that tax receipt yet ?

Came across this, no idea if it is accurate but a different viewpoint than most here, by an Ozzie

Ukraine shrinks again - Pearls and Irritations


I have no idea why you think that would work ? Everyone else who has never been within 1,000 miles of China knows a lot more about it than me. I'm sure the same is true for the Ukraine.


Absolutely ! This is not like when the US invaded Iraq or Afghanistan or any number of other small countries. These are real people, not gooks or rugheads !

i dont despise the men and women serving in the military, i despise the leaders that make them do horrible things under false pretenses. are they blinded/brainwashed? most likely, should i despise them for it?

 

[EmGo]

i dont despise the men and women serving in the military, i despise the leaders that make them do horrible things under false pretenses. are they blinded/brainwashed? most likely, should i despise them for it?

Emp, if you sign up with Al Capone, do you get to complain that he makes you do rotten things ?

In 1965 it was possible to fall for the "thank you for your service" garbage but since then, facts have been revealed. Even then we had Smedley Butler but still, WW II erased a lot of memories.

Nowadays, signing up to be the henchmen for the lowest scum on earth is pretty hard to justify.

 

[thermite]

Especially when you look at all the little hitler wannabe's currently on the world leadership stage. The pandemic bought them out in droves.

That could turn out to be a blessing, if enough wiser folk take note and FIX that little problem ..where .. and WHILE.. the ballot box still matters.

Ukraine was silly for giving up their nuclear weapons.

It might be less than 100% of a certainty to be overly confident they really did. Not as if they needed a LOT of them to upset an applecart, is it?

No-one is going to come to their aide.

Jayzus. You numbers-challenged?

Name any country, Israel included, as has EVER gotten as much "aid" in as short a time in all of human history?

D'you not realized how much MONEY has kept them afloat?

Or the per TON cost of 2,000 TONS of US weapons alone?

One Javelin with one round costs we US taxpayers about US$ 250,000 in 2022 bucks.

"No one is going to come to their aid ....with boots on the ground."
...might be reasonably accurate.

But combat-effective manpower they HAVE enough of.

The OTHER "aid" is already showing its worth. Vehicle killers. Ground and air.

Once down to boots in the mud, the better fed, healthier, and for damned sure better MOTIVATED ... Ukrainians have .. and will again ..deal with a poorly fed, led, and motivated Russian Army that largely doesn't even want to BE there as garrison troops, let alone sniper, MG, mortar, grenade, or artillery fodder in combat operations.

Putin has to find a way to supply that army, too, not just "send them in". Once again, better than half the Big Bucks nations in the world are helping supply Ukraine. Russia? Longer supply lines. Worse thievery en-route. Not so well-supplied to begin with.

Mad Vlad f**ked up.

Even if he gets INTO Ukraine, how TF does he expect to EITHER control it OR get back OUT ... at any sane cost?

He will enjoy neither mercy.

ALL wars are at core "economic".

Mad Vlad lost this one before he even invaded Donbas and Crimea, 2014.

Follow the money.

 

[empower]

Emp, if you sign up with Al Capone, do you get to complain that he makes you do rotten things ?

In 1965 it was possible to fall for the "thank you for your service" garbage but since then, facts have been revealed. Even then we had Smedley Butler but still, WW II erased a lot of memories.

Nowadays, signing up to be the henchmen for the lowest scum on earth is pretty hard to justify.

all i got to say is: the propaganda machine is clearly working very well. do i wish people didnt fall for it? OF COURSE!
do i have to hate and despise them that they cant see it?

 

[thermite]

i can rarely tell if what you said is accurate or not because it literally sounds like gibberish.

It might READ like it to yah. I was not involved in your education.

But unless you are running a text-to-speech app? It has no "sound".

 

[thermite]

all i got to say is: the propaganda machine is clearly working very well. do i wish people didnt fall for it? OF COURSE!
do i have to hate and despise them that they cant see it?

This lady didn't NEED no steenkin' "propaganda". She just spoke her mind:

Brave Ukrainian woman tells Russian soldier: ‘Put sunflower seeds in your pocket so they grow when you die’

To be fair? All the Ukranian's I knew in Pittsburgh?

I don't recall ANY of the women as did NOT say what they felt like sayin'!

Mad Vlad f**ked-up...

War always has delayed reporting, under-reporting, and outright lies, but "so far"?

I'm figuring 200 Ukrianian dead to 900 to 1,000 Putinista dead or otherwise out of action.

That ratio can drop to half that, Russian AFV's will eventually be cut-off from fuel, then torched, survivors will run out of food and ammunition, so it still favours Ukraine prevailing.

 

[EmGo]

do i have to hate and despise them that they cant see it?

When they spend their lives killing people living in their own countries who never did a damn thing to us ? Yeah, kinda. I don't like murderers and serial killers, in or out of uniforms. I'm not a christian or any of that crap but it just isn't right.

 

[Freedommachine]

That could turn out to be a blessing, if enough wiser folk take note and FIX that little problem ..where .. and WHILE.. the ballot box still matters.

It might be less than 100% of a certainty to be overly confident they really did. Not as if they needed a LOT of them to upset an applecart, is it?



Jayzus. You numbers-challenged?

Name any country, Israel included, as has EVER gotten as much "aid" in as short a time in all of human history?

D'you not realized how much MONEY has kept them afloat?

Or the per TON cost of 2,000 TONS of US weapons alone?

One Javelin with one round costs we US taxpayers about US$ 250,000 in 2022 bucks.

"No one is going to come to their aid ....with boots on the ground."
...might be reasonably accurate.

But combat-effective manpower they HAVE enough of.

The OTHER "aid" is already showing its worth. Vehicle killers. Ground and air.

Once down to boots in the mud, the better fed, healthier, and for damned sure better MOTIVATED ... Ukrainians have .. and will again ..deal with a poorly fed, led, and motivated Russian Army that largely doesn't even want to BE there as garrison troops, let alone sniper, MG, mortar, grenade, or artillery fodder in combat operations.

Putin has to find a way to supply that army, too, not just "send them in". Once again, better than half the Big Bucks nations in the world are helping supply Ukraine. Russia? Longer supply lines. Worse thievery en-route. Not so well-supplied to begin with.

Mad Vlad f**ked up.

Even if he gets INTO Ukraine, how TF does he expect to EITHER control it OR get back OUT ... at any sane cost?

He will enjoy neither mercy.

ALL wars are at core "economic".

Mad Vlad lost this one before he even invaded Donbas and Crimea, 2014.

Follow the money.

The World Bank made a statement earlier:

“We stand ready to provide immediate support to Ukraine and are preparing options for such support, including fast-disbursing financing. Alongside development partners, the World Bank Group will use all our financing and technical support tools for rapid response,”

World Bank ready to provide 'immediate' financial aid to Ukraine - NewsX

Talk about making a deal with the devil though.

Russian invaders on one side, blood sucking globalist banking interests on the other.

Bill, what I cannot figure out - Why would Russia make such terrible battle plans? I cannot wrap my head around how they were so deceived.

The whole world was aware of the military aid being given to Ukraine. Russian strategists didn't have Intel or at least assume NATO assets would come with that?

 

[EmGo]

The whole world was aware of the military aid being given to Ukraine. Russian strategists didn't have Intel or at least assume NATO assets would come with that?

Different viewpoint

Ukraine shrinks again - Pearls and Irritations

not my business to figure this out, have enough to do denying all the stupid crap people write about china but ...

 

[thermite]

Different viewpoint

Ukraine shrinks again - Pearls and Irritations

not my business to figure this out, have enough to do denying all the stupid crap people write about china but ...

LOL! "Denying" seems to define your whole sad life, doesn't it?

Couldn't happen to a more deserving drug-burnout.

 

[thermite]

Bill, what I cannot figure out - Why would Russia make such terrible battle plans? I cannot wrap my head around how they were so deceived.

Their "real" Generals were not the least BIT unaware.

NAZI Germany's wiser officers knew they would lose.

Japan 's Fleet Admirals knew they would lose a sea and air war with the USA before ever they hit Pearl Harbour as well.

They shared the same problem:

Life in a Police State where dissent gets your family murdered.

So they follow their orders until they no longer have the wherewithal to continue.

Tragic, but that's how it works when an ignorant (Hitler..) or unsound (Bismarck, Bonaparte, Tojo.. ) mind.... gets control of a(ny) totalitarian entity.

Even when it is only a single family. Or a small commercial bizness.

Putin is both.

Ignorant of the real basis of national power (economic), and unsound of mind in thinking he has even ten-percent of the wherewithal to overcome the huge disadvantage... just because NO ONE within his contact group has the balls to shout him out as a dangerous fool [1].

Look what Mad Vlad has for a head of Armed forces? A fellow apex-predator kleptocrat. Not a combat soldier.

Bright guy, but as a Civil Engineer, party organizer, Project Manager.
Numbers guy.

Not a combat veteran.. who factors in the "fog of war" and that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. Zhukov, by contrast, revised his plans by the hour if not the minute.

And now Mad Vlad's missile attacks - are dropping.
Ukraine suspects they are running short of missiles.

I suspect they have plenty, but their bean-counters have realized they are close to 100% waste of expensive ordnance if nothing they damage is actually a game-changer.

Now they get a lesson on what eight years of war with Ukrainian veterans sharing as much of value with NATO trainers as the NATO VETERAN trainers shared with Ukrainians means ... against a poorly trained and even LESS "motivated" Russian Army.

Ukraine adapts. They HAVE to do.

Ukrainian serviceman Skakun blows up Henichesk bridge to stop advance of tank column

Out of time. All he had left was resolve. It was enough.

Macron wants to broker a cease fire?
What d'you suppose the terms might be?

Thousand bucks each, in US Dollars, for each Russian allowed to escape Ukraine alive?

Might not be enough.
Ukraine is PISSED!

When you're wounded and left on Ukraine's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
and go to your gawd like a soldier.


With NO apologies to the immortal Rudyard Kipling. He'd have said the same his own self.


[1]
Well.. one had the balls to try. A retired Russian General..

Retired Russian Generals Criticize Putin Over Ukraine, Renew Call for His Resignation

Before the invasion jumped-off.

Annnd ....1700 or more ordinary Russians... demonstrating in the streets of a rather high count of Russian cities. SINCE the invasion began.
Counting only the ones as were actually arrested.

Mad Vlad Putin is too unhealthy-arrogant to be scared.

More experienced, nasty-enough, but still SANE, but no longer YOUNG - Lukashenko is the one far the more worried. May as well stick a fork in his regime's ass.

Putin won't be able to help him deal with the sanctions as have come down on Belarus' head for their part in this tragedy.

When all the dust has settled, Lukashenko ain't immortal. Belarus is likely to become the next Ukraine.

 

[standardparts]

No, he's a threat because he's a psychopath running a corrupt regime, that stifles dissent, murders its political opposition wherever it can find it around the world, and hopes to re-create the "Iron Curtain" and new visions of weapons of mutual assured destruction.

The ex-KGB dude came to power at a time of Russian economic collapse. There was no way but up. Meanwhile he and his oligarch cronies have plundered the nation. Those GDP per capita numbers include immense revenues from gas and oil - and much of that siphoned off by Putin's inner circle.

Kind of an interesting Venn diagram emerging here - some of the "vaccines are here to control us" crowd, the "we need to burn oil as fast as we can" climate deniers, some of the "Trump is the second coming" cohort, and the "Putin is a righteous dude" apologists here (Trump urging them on) seem to be gathering in the same dystopian corner. Putin good. Vaccines bad. Fuck climate change. God is on our side.

To answer the OP's question - the Western World and its manufacturing face a choice. To stand up for relative individual freedom, use a bit less Russian (Iranian, etc.) fossil fuels, and be temporarily uncomfortable. Or to see us dig our metaphorical graves, burn as much of Putin's oil and gas as we can, and see the relative peace and prosperity of the post WWII period recede.

"The ex-KGB dude came to power at a time of Russian economic collapse. There was no way but up. Meanwhile he and his oligarch cronies have plundered the nation."

Putin, like many tyrants before remain in power as long as they facilitate the actions of others to make money....The "oligarch" can't be all bad...right?

'Mykola Vladislavovich Zlochevsky (Ukrainian: Микола Владиславович Злочевський; born 14 June 1966 in Kyiv) is a Ukrainian oil and natural gas businessman, politician and a Ukrainian oligarch.',,,,,,,,,,,,,,'In 2002, he co-founded the largest independent oil and natural gas company Burisma Holdings'....... 'THE VICE PRESIDENT’S OFFICE AND STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS WERE
AWARE OF BUT IGNORED CONCERNS RELATING TO HUNTER BIDEN’S ROLE
ON BURISMA’S BOARD.'

So yeah, Putin bad, very-very bad. What about this oligarch business and will Americans die protecting the natural gas business? I guess Joe Biden can make a fair and honest decision...eh?

 

[thermite]

Bill - serious Q's for your thoughts....
Why has he done this?

World figures who have dealt with him face to face a while back, and recently have reported a significant personality change.

He is fed like a health-food fanatic, but was not ALWAYS.

And he is not young by standards for his generation and ethnicity.

"Smart money" says he actually HAS gone around the bend, mentally, because there are NO "good outcomes" for Russia out of this tragedy.

At all. Nor were there, ever.

But all those close to him are helpless to DO anything about it.

Russia has a history of brutal regime change. Usually more effective than Claus Von Stauffenberg being too safety-regimented (or ignorant?) to prime his explosives before he started his journey.

The Rus can fix this little problem.
Or suffer.

My bet is they suffer.
Sadly, it is the one thing on Earth few do any better than Russians.

Is anyone behind him driving this?

I could make the case that Mad Vlad is actually an Android robot being operated out of either of Beijing or Langley, Virginia as the fastest way to complete the final destruction of Russia.

China gains control of the resources in what is coming, so Beijing running both of Biden and Putin makes more sense.

Wish that was a joke.

Android robots or not, the effect of Mad Vlad meets Lied-in-Buyed-in is the same.

China's economy benefits.

All others take an(other) economic hit - on top of - COVID - if not also the devastation of war as well as the damnable cost of enhanced preparation FOR it.

Go figure a reality stranger than fiction?

 

[standardparts]

World figures who have dealt with him face to face a while back, and recently have reported a significant personality change.

He is fed like a health-food fanatic, but was not ALWAYS.

And he is not young by standards for his generation and ethnicity.

"Smart money" says he actually HAS gone around the bend, mentally, because there are NO "good outcomes" for Russia out of this tragedy.

At all. Nor were there, ever.

But all those close to him are helpless to DO anything about it.

Russia has a history of brutal regime change. Usually more effective than Claus Von Stauffenberg being too safety-regimented (or ignorant?) to prime his explosives before he started his journey.

The Rus can fix this little problem.
Or suffer.

My bet is they suffer.
Sadly, it is the one thing on Earth few do any better than Russians.



I could make the case that Mad Vlad is actually an Android robot being operated out of either of Beijing or Langley, Virginia as the fastest way to complete the final destruction of Russia.

China gains control of the resources in what is coming, so Beijing running both of Biden and Putin makes more sense.

Wish that was a joke.

Android robots or not, the effect of Mad Vlad meets Lied-in-Buyed-in is the same.

Go figure a reality stranger than fiction?

Some good points. I know some will disagree.

China is indeed playing the long game and has invested heavily in gaining "influence" in the U.S. and Russia along with other Nations.

Germany needed natural gas that Putin could deliver and add to the wealth of others so Germany enabled Putin. Of course I don't recall the U.S., NATO or the EU complaining.

Maybe now China got itself a more reliable energy supplier. Maybe it will be less expensive. Maybe China is very happy. China burns coal like no tomorrow. Nobody complains.

The U.S. used to have a literal glut of oil and gas and could supply Europe which would create American jobs but we want solar panels which depend on made in China crap.

Our leaders are fucking us. Putin could very well be off his rocker. Joey, Nancy, and Chuck ain't far behind.