What's new
What's new

Hydraulics Not On with Main Power and Controller On: Old Citizen F12 w/3T

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
For the few years that I've owned it, this machine has always powered up without issue. [It's a 1983 Citizen Cincom F12 with a System 3T controller.]
I'm not sure what's wrong or what caused it, but now just fans in the computer cabinet come on and nothing else. There is no alarm code or alarm message, and the screen just shows the words, "Not Ready" flashing off and on. Other than being able to punch in an "Offset" value, I'm unable to input any program info, MDI commands, or parameters. [I rebooted the system erasing all programs, parameters, and offsets, in order to rectify the hydraulics/servos off issue.]
Any fans on Old Citizen F12's and/or F16's out there who have come across this occurrence over their machine's long and resourceful life?
I'd appreciate all the tips I can get.
Thank you in advance.
 

DouglasJRizzo

Titanium
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Location
Ramsey, NJ.
Open the back cabinet - you've got either a tripped breaker or defective magnetic contactor. That's why you're not getting "Machine Ready" condition.
 

FrankieB

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 28, 2019
Check all your fuses and give your relays a few taps. Had a 2004 haas lathe do this, ended up being a stuck relay.
 

Chimpwithastick

Plastic
Joined
Jun 15, 2022
Don't forget to make sure none of the E-stops have been tripped. E-stops, breakers, overloads are the first things I check when I get a "not ready" that won't go away. Your Electrical Diagrams in your manuals, should have a line for "Control On" That you can follow that tells you every component that needs to be "ok" for power up.

I don't know how much you have already checked, or what your previous training and understanding is, but I will assume nothing and go from there. No offense intended, just gotta start somewhere!
 

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
Open the back cabinet - you've got either a tripped breaker or defective magnetic contactor. That's why you're not getting "Machine Ready" condition.
Thank you very much for your advice and for taking the time. I've been looking for any and all of the fuses and breakers I could find, and will now also look for defective magnetic contactors. I'm not exactly sure what magnetic contactors look like or where to look for them, but now that I have a name I can do more research on them. Again my thanks... I really appreciate the help!
 

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
Check all your fuses and give your relays a few taps. Had a 2004 haas lathe do this, ended up being a stuck relay.
Thank you very much for your advise. Tapping and otherwise checking the relays is something I haven't done yet. As per fuses, I did replace one small 1.0A fuse (green in color) that was inside the operators panel, but with no change. There must be one hiding somewhere that I haven't found yet. Your time and response are greatly appreciated!
 

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
Don't forget to make sure none of the E-stops have been tripped. E-stops, breakers, overloads are the first things I check when I get a "not ready" that won't go away. Your Electrical Diagrams in your manuals, should have a line for "Control On" That you can follow that tells you every component that needs to be "ok" for power up.

I don't know how much you have already checked, or what your previous training and understanding is, but I will assume nothing and go from there. No offense intended, just gotta start somewhere!
Great advise indeed. Off and on I've worked around machines like this for many years - mostly just programming or setting them up - but when it comes to the technical side (i.e.- heart of the machine) I consider myself a novice... so "absolutely" no offense taken. I have all the manuals but at times find them confusing or vague when it comes to describing corrective action and how to take it. This old machine is very unique to any others I'd worked on, as the one and only e-stop is the only way to physically shut off the controller on the operator's panel (no square red power off button). I found and replaced one small 1.0A fuse that was amongst a bunch of relays inside the operator's panel, and have been reviewing the electrical diagrams to learn exactly which components need to be "OK" in order to power up. Thank you again for your time and advice... it's greatly appreciated!
 

Chimpwithastick

Plastic
Joined
Jun 15, 2022
My company doesn't have any Citzen machinery, but basics are basics across the board. Any chance you can upload a picture of your electrical cabinet? I found this picture online, looks like it came from this forum possibly. The things circled in green are the magnetic contactors. The red circle immediately following are overloads. There should be a little reset button on the overloads. It wouldn't hurt to, with power off, trip the overloads by using a small screwdriver and moving the "flag" to the tripped position, then pushing the reset button. Sometimes they trip, but don't fully indicate and look like they are fine.
 

Attachments

  • CITIZEN F12.jpg
    CITIZEN F12.jpg
    209.9 KB · Views: 9

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
My company doesn't have any Citzen machinery, but basics are basics across the board. Any chance you can upload a picture of your electrical cabinet? I found this picture online, looks like it came from this forum possibly. The things circled in green are the magnetic contactors. The red circle immediately following are overloads. There should be a little reset button on the overloads. It wouldn't hurt to, with power off, trip the overloads by using a small screwdriver and moving the "flag" to the tripped position, then pushing the reset button. Sometimes they trip, but don't fully indicate and look like they are fine.
I've attached a few photos of the inside of the cabinet - please let me know if you'd like to see a clearer shot of a specific area. I've reset ever breaker and relay that I've found and that DSC00042.JPGDSC00054.JPGDSC00050.JPGDSC00053.JPGDSC00047.JPGDSC00049.JPGcan be seen in the photos, I also checked the (2) black fuses on the power supply and (1) green fuse that's on the motherboard. Thanks for the follow up! (Hope the photos come through okay... I'm a novice at this kinda stuff too!)
 

Garwood

Diamond
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Location
Oregon
You did or did not get the parameters in it?

If you are sure you have the parameters 100% loaded correctly in the control what happens you manually close the hydraulics contactor? If everything comes up great then you have a problem with the contactor coil or the circuit it's on.
 

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
You did or did not get the parameters in it?

If you are sure you have the parameters 100% loaded correctly in the control what happens you manually close the hydraulics contactor? If everything comes up great then you have a problem with the contactor coil or the circuit it's on.
Unfortunately I "have not" been able to re-input the parameters - I do have a copy of them. With the parameter switch in the cabinet set to on, and while in MDI mode (or any other mode), when I press the Q/P button - input a parameter such as "No.0007" - the cursor jumps to that number but does not allow me to input further data (4 digits max) - the screen is flashing "Not Ready" and displaying "Alarm No.100". I've been told the hydraulics need to be "On" in order to set the parameters on this particular machine... but I've also been told the hydraulics "Can't Turn On" without certain parameters being set. Thank you for your help... I appreciate it!
 

Chimpwithastick

Plastic
Joined
Jun 15, 2022
The blue circles should be the overload reset buttons. Try pushing each of those. Sometimes they stick in older machines and don't indicate tripped even if they have been (we have numerous 80s Matsuura 1000s). I assume you have a voltmeter or multimeter, Test the AC Voltage in the red circle with power on, terminals labeled 1,3,5 / wires R5,S5,T5.

If the voltage is present at the magnetic contactor and your overloads aren't tripped, the problem is either your contactors or the circuit that controls them. That wire on the contactor labeled 124 should be the control power. Probably supposed to be around 100V AC between 124 and wire 104 on the bottom. If you get proper voltage with power on, then the problem is your contactor. If voltage is not present or not about 100V AC (assuming this is the correct voltage), your control power circuit is the culprit.
 

Attachments

  • Citizen .jpg
    Citizen .jpg
    508.2 KB · Views: 1

Vancbiker

Diamond
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Location
Vancouver, WA. USA
Until you get the CNC and Diagnostic parameters loaded, messing with voltages and contactors is pointless. I can’t think of anything that not having the hydraulics running should prevent parameter loading. You will never get rid of the Not Ready alarm without valid parameters loaded. I don’t have a 3 series maintenance manual handy to review the correct parameter entry process. Something is tickling my mind like you had to key in a P before trying to enter bit data. Need to review the manual on that though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: aj

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
The blue circles should be the overload reset buttons. Try pushing each of those. Sometimes they stick in older machines and don't indicate tripped even if they have been (we have numerous 80s Matsuura 1000s). I assume you have a voltmeter or multimeter, Test the AC Voltage in the red circle with power on, terminals labeled 1,3,5 / wires R5,S5,T5.

If the voltage is present at the magnetic contactor and your overloads aren't tripped, the problem is either your contactors or the circuit that controls them. That wire on the contactor labeled 124 should be the control power. Probably supposed to be around 100V AC between 124 and wire 104 on the bottom. If you get proper voltage with power on, then the problem is your contactor. If voltage is not present or not about 100V AC (assuming this is the correct voltage), your control power circuit is the culprit.
I reset all the overload buttons and noted the voltage at each contactor terminal (see attachment). I couldn't find wire 124 which you said should be the control power (and to check with wire 104). I manually actuated the contactors which turned on the hydraulics, coolant pump, and cabinet door fans (they turn off as soon as I release the button on the contactor).
On a tangent and by coincidence... a Matsuura 1000 was the first production machine I ever used when I was starting out back in 1980. They ran for decades with very few issues. Great long lasting machines! Thanks again for your help.
 

Attachments

  • POST ON PM.jpg
    POST ON PM.jpg
    505.2 KB · Views: 1

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
Until you get the CNC and Diagnostic parameters loaded, messing with voltages and contactors is pointless. I can’t think of anything that not having the hydraulics running should prevent parameter loading. You will never get rid of the Not Ready alarm without valid parameters loaded. I don’t have a 3 series maintenance manual handy to review the correct parameter entry process. Something is tickling my mind like you had to key in a P before trying to enter bit data. Need to review the manual on that though.
I have been following the manual's instructions for inputting parameters. The "P/Q" button is the only "address' button that has a function while setting parameters. With both information from the manual and photos I've seen online, "Alarm 100" is the only message that should appear on the screen while attempting to change parameters (i.e.- I've haven't seen a screen displaying both "Not Ready" and "Alarm 100" at the same time).
 

Attachments

  • DSC00050 (2).JPG
    DSC00050 (2).JPG
    567.3 KB · Views: 3

cnctoolcat

Diamond
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Location
Abingdon, VA
On machines of that age, always suspect failing/failed DC power supplies!

You show a large PS in one of the photos, it appears to power the the NC rack.

There's probably a PS for the relays board in the cabinet somewhere, and possibly a PS in the monitor/control panel cabinet.

Just because the DC voltage measures good doesn't necessarily mean the PS is good, as an older unit could have enough "AC ripple" to negatively effect it's output.

ToolCat
 

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
On machines of that age, always suspect failing/failed DC power supplies!

You show a large PS in one of the photos, it appears to power the the NC rack.

There's probably a PS for the relays board in the cabinet somewhere, and possibly a PS in the monitor/control panel cabinet.

Just because the DC voltage measures good doesn't necessarily mean the PS is good, as an older unit could have enough "AC ripple" to negatively effect it's output.

ToolCat
Thank you for your time and insight! I appreciate it and will keep that in mind.
 

aj

Cast Iron
Joined
May 12, 2006
Location
Burlington, North Carolina
I don't know if you've found them yet, but there are two reset buttons on the lower right hand corners of your X and Z axis drive units. They're kinda buried under the white connectors. We have a F20 and those pop from time to time. Little red buttons, simple to reset, just push them in.

Best of luck to you.
 








 
Top