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I have no idea how Huge China Mfg Subsidies are

JoeFin

Stainless
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Location
No. Calif
This explains our current manufacturing / trade deficit completely.

I encourage everyone here to read the complete testimony and then get angry as you look at your shrinking bottom line

Dr. Usha C. V. Haley

Director, Global Business Center, University of New Haven

Statement before the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission

Hearing on China’s World Trade Compliance: Industrial Subsidies and the Impact on U.S. and World Markets ]/b]

Subsidies exist in all industries that the Chinese state and provincial governments considered economically or militarily strategic, including Resource Extraction, Steel, Computing, Software, R & D, Environmental Services and Conservation, and Autos.

The subsidies exist in various forms, including:



Free to Low-cost Loans. The government exercises a vice-like grip on banks, stock markets and bond issuance and these translate to the ability to make grandiose loans. The most extreme statistics in the financial sector deal with loans outstanding. In three years from 2002 to 2004, loans increased by 58 per cent, or $785 billion. In 2003, new lending equaled almost one quarter of gross domestic product (GDP). A credit binge fueled this latest boom. Half of all bank loans go to SOEs. Most of these loans will never be repaid. Huawei for example, has a $10 billion credit line from China Development Bank.

Asset Injections: The SOEs’ parent companies, usually municipal governments or ministries, provide their protégés with opportunities to acquire state-run businesses, such as toll bridges, at highly preferential terms.

No Break-even: Poor bookkeeping practices, and lax bottom-line considerations, grant SOEs freedom from the need to make profits, or to break even.

Subsidized Purchases: SOEs can purchase their components and raw materials below cost and directly from each other, affecting the competitiveness of certain sectors in the global economy. This tradition propelled the Chinese motorcycle industry’s ability to buy control of virtually all Indian motorcycle companies short of Bajaj and turn them into assemblers of Chinese components.

International Bargaining Power: Beijing has used its enormous buying power to intercede for its SOEs with foreign suppliers and to reduce acquisition costs for raw materials. A recent example includes the Chinese government’s aborted attempt to bully down the cost of iron ore for the Chinese steel industry below internationally-negotiated price levels. The Chinese government has also secured contracts and exploration rights abroad for its SOEs.

Labor Controls: The government exercises various methods to control employees including the dang’an or employment dossier; and to reduce labor costs through injection of part-time and migrant workers and the use of prison labor.

Tax Breaks: Many SOEs avoid taxation or reduce it through tax breaks (although this can backfire if a company’s management loses favor).

Energy and Land Subsidies: The state subsidizes gasoline and electricity. Currently, Beijing tightly controls the price of both gasoline and electricity at well below their true economic levels. The state also offers free land and utilities to SOEs and companies in key strategic sectors.

Sectoral Credit Allocation: The Chinese economy speeds up or slows down on a sector-by-sector basis on credit allocations by Beijing. Some sectors such as automotive, steel, ethylene and metals’ smelting have come off the boil. Others sectors such as coal, railways and utilities are still getting huge infusions of policy-mandated credit. Very high levels of bureaucratic interference characterize credit allocations and industrial-project approvals in China and the state banking system does not allow the market to price capital.

Stock Listings: SOEs and Collectives form over 93 percent of the listing of approximately 1300 companies on China’s Shanghai and Shenzhen Stock Exchanges. Provincial governments pressure government regulators to discriminate against private companies and give the precious slots to their ailing state dinosaurs. Indeed, private companies without state connections cannot obtain a listing on any Chinese stock exchange

Cheap Technology: China runs a deficit on its technology trade with the rest of the world and foreign multinational companies control 80 percent of technological imports and exports in China. The Chinese have made little progress in either basic research or advanced design in vital industries. Despite this institutional flaw, SOEs such as Huawei owe much of their success to lax laws governing the theft of intellectual property.

Control over Distribution Channels: Provincial and municipal governments control distribution channels to allocate and to manage market share, to protect favored industries from competition and to shape investment patterns. Regulations on distribution incorporate considerable ambiguities leading to both legitimate differences in interpretation and considerable legal efforts to find loopholes. Central and provincial governments routinely use this ambiguity to confer privileges on favored companies or industries, and to withhold normal rights from companies or industries as a form of protectionism. Administrative guidance from various and competing sources can override the basic laws or regulations either explicitly or unofficially. Provincial or municipal governments may interfere with the national limits on distribution by their generosity (to lure investment or to meet local goals) or restrictions (to protect local interests). Guanxi with local army officials assumes particular importance for distribution. Some estimates suggest that the Peoples’ Liberation Army (PLA) controls distribution of goods for up to about 80 percent of the Chinese population. Its control over manufacturing facilities also makes the PLA China’s largest and most diversified manufacturer of industrial and consumer goods.

Special Market Information: Relevant information for strategic decisions comes at a premium price in China and often includes what we in the USA would consider Insider Information. In China, the central government deliberately controls and disseminates information that it considers of strategic importance. When restrictions on distribution insulate foreign or Chinese companies from their customers, they also cannot undertake direct market research and have to rely on less-sophisticated surrogates. For example, General Motors’ (GMs’) interns in Beijing have scoured the capital’s streets to find out who is buying their cars after the intermediaries get them, so that GM can build guanxi with the buyers.

United States-China Economic and Security Review Commission Hearing April 4, 2006 - Testimony of Dr. Usha C. V. Haley
 

iwananew10K

Diamond
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Location
moscow,ohio
uhhgg... i have to agree with the above.
education in the US has some serious issues. i have 2 boys in grade school and i can`t believe how much of their time is spent on preparing for stupid standardized testing. not teaching anything, just memorizing test answers. literally.
 

DMF_TomB

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Location
Rochester, NY, USA
exchange rate

often forgotten is the dollar exchange rate which is the vastly most important subsidy. it is the 800lb gorilla in the room. The USA has subsidies too. Food like corn and wheat is heavily subsidized by US government. Food cost by % of income is vastly cheaper in the USA than most other countries.
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File:1 RMB to US dollar.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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this was a deliberate and calculated way around tariffs. rarely do you hear it talked about much. for example

1) make a $10 a day and if it costs only $5 a day to maintain a comfortable standard of living you will be a rich person. i have seen some newer Chinese housing bigger and better equipped with modern appliances and electronics than most homes in the USA. Some of this is one child policy as grand parents pass away accumulated wealth goes to fewer parents and children.

2) make $1000 a day and if it costs $1001 a day to maintain standard of living you will go into debt
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exchange rate was
1980 2 RMB to $1
2000 8.3 RMB to $1
2012 6.3 RMB to $1
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Chinese Yuan Renminbi Exchange Rate Graph - US Dollar - Historical Exchange Rates
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why do you think they say manufacturing is coming back to the USA slowly?? The Chinese are adjusting exchange rate. They have the jobs and standard of living they were trying for now they are adjusting exchange rate so energy costs like imported oil will be cheaper for them.
 

Mark Rand

Diamond
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Location
UK Rugby Warwickshire
Almost every single point in the OP has been or is still applied to parts of the US economy.

China is a developing country. They are doing what developing countries have to do to reach the same standard of living as the already developed nations. Japan did it, South Korea did it, the US did it, India is still doing it. When Britain did it, it was the start of the Industrial Revolution:typing:
 

JoeFin

Stainless
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Location
No. Calif
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why do you think they say manufacturing is coming back to the USA slowly?? The Chinese are adjusting exchange rate. They have the jobs and standard of living they were trying for now they are adjusting exchange rate so energy costs like imported oil will be cheaper for them.

China's success in steel production exports as well as most of its manufacturing sector benifited grealy from the State Run subsidiesed energy. Steel production being the most energy intensive

F0806C_A.gif


Oil pricing is global and the Chinese government is finding it more difficult to keep the fuel subsidies in place
 

Ries

Diamond
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Location
Edison Washington USA
Everything is always more complicated than we would like.

Fer instance, for many years, the Chinese have charged their steelmakers an export tax on exported steel. At one point, it was as high as 25%.

So they lower the costs for steelmakers, then they target selective steels with a high tax, so that they can keep certain steels for internal production of finished goods, so they make more profit, on, say, an exercise machine, then they would on just a piece of pipe.

But then, they instituted an export tax REBATE on certain steels, so that the mills could sell them below market.

Now, in the last couple months, they are talking about lowering the rebates, in essence, raising the price of exported steel.

So, the government is constantly shuffling prices and costs, to get the result it wants. This is called a planned economy, and its one thing socialism and dictatorship is really good at- the results of the planning dont always turn out the way they want, but they can control the economy to a much bigger degree than we can.

China Scraps Steel Export Tax Rebate | Break Bulk

All of this, in total, is part of what is called an "industrial policy". Every major country in the world has one- including the USA. The difference is, the Chinese, or the Germans, or the Koreans, all admit it openly, have government departments deciding what the policy will be, and then pass laws and tariffs and taxes accordingly.

we, on the other hand, pretend we dont "pick winners and losers", while we do, of course. But we do it by choosing who donates the most campaign funds, whose lobbyists throw the best parties and take politicians to the best golf courses. Where are the factories located, whose "turn" is it, and so on.
We would be much better off if we just admitted we are jiggling our own markets and economy just as much as everybody else, and did it in a transparent, efficient way, deciding on the subsidies (and we have tons of em- probably, in real money, more than the Chinese) out in the open, where honest debates and facts were presented.

This, of course, would require fixing the campaign finance mess- which is, in my opinion, at the root of a huge amount of our economic problems. Right now, you buy government services by giving politicians, or their PAC's, money. Boeing does this, and gets the import export bank to guarantee all its loans for selling planes abroad. Microsoft does this, and gets 40,000 H1B visas for cheap green card engineers. And on down the line.

Personally, I think we could do a lot worse than to COPY the chinese, and subsidize OUR manufacturing in more ways, both directly and indirectly. When the Chinese build 40,000 miles of railway, and order 500 locomotives, US locomotive builders make money. Wouldnt it be great if WE did the same thing? Supported our own industries? Nah, we should just subsidize Wall Street and Hedge Funds. Its more American.
 

JoeFin

Stainless
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Location
No. Calif
The USA is exporting Debt. Fine US-Treasury Notes.

Lets try to stay on topic here - what do you think about the size and scope of Chinese subsidies to their manufacturing sector and the effects it has on American and European manufacturing.

I don't dispute eduction plays a significant role - just that is not the topic of discusion in the Op
 

Ries

Diamond
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Location
Edison Washington USA
The USA is exporting Debt. Fine US-Treasury Notes.

Backed by the full Faith and Slavery of the US Taxpayer.

Funny how buying T Bills is not mandatory- anybody can decline, and yet they sell literally billions of em a week. Because that debt is still better debt than pretty much any other debt product on the market.
If you have to park your money somewhere, most every investor on the planet puts their money where their mouth is, and bets that the US is more likely to pay off its debt than not, and more likely to be a safe investment than pretty much any other on the planet.

Of course, this may change, but it hasnt yet. Of course, every single investor, big and small, may be wrong, and you may be right...
I'm sure its happened before.

Me, I have some money in savings bonds, and a bit of IRA money in a T bill fund, and it doesnt keep me up at night.
 

JoeFin

Stainless
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
Location
No. Calif
We would be much better off if we just admitted we are jiggling our own markets and economy just as much as everybody else, and did it in a transparent, efficient way, deciding on the subsidies (and we have tons of em- probably, in real money, more than the Chinese) out in the open, where honest debates and facts were presented.

There is no dispute the US provides subsidies to US businesses - Just that all of them are on Wall St. USA's 0% tarrif to China's 20% tarrif is just one of them.
 

jCandlish

Titanium
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Location
Oberaargau, Swizerland
Lets try to stay on topic here - what do you think about the size and scope of Chinese subsidies to their manufacturing sector and the effects it has on American and European manufacturing.

Chinese subsidies are in-line and comparable to their trading partners. My guess is that they are in-gross and certainly per-capita far less that USA subsidies.

The whole issue is a straw-man with respect to your opening sentence: "This explains our current manufacturing / trade deficit completely". As it does not.

There are more significant forces at play. For example, just who is it that decides the "quality of Debt"?

@Ries. Living in the US and being a taxpayer you have little risk in Treasury instruments, as you cannot default to yourself.

In the meantime, everybody keep paying taxes. Your creditors expect the vig.
 

kpotter

Diamond
Joined
Apr 30, 2001
Location
tucson arizona usa
I dont understand why every one is upset about China. They are a communist country they play by a different set of rules than the US. I bet everyone here would love to get free money and land from the US government, in exchange for creating jobs and sticking it to the chinese. We should be pissed at our government for not protecting its own industries from the Chinese. Our government is the one we should blame for our down fall. We could pass trade laws that make importing chinese products impossible. Our own global corporations are the benefactors of China's subisidies. They are the ones who import the crap with out any tariffs and compete with domestic manufacterers. A capitalist will sell you the rope from which to hang him with. (lenin) ?
 

Miguels244

Diamond
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Location
Denver, CO USA
What...
Are people whining that the world isn't playing by our rules?
China is kicking our butt because they are willing to do what needs to be done and we are not.
The reason we are not is because the plutocrats can extract more wealth either way and they don't care about the nation.
 
G

Guest

Guest
What...
Are people whining that the world isn't playing by our rules?
China is kicking our butt because they are willing to do what needs to be done and we are not.
The reason we are not is because the plutocrats can extract more wealth either way and they don't care about the nation.

Bottom line the Chinese government cares about all their manufacturing businesses, ours does not. I wish we could outsource some of our political offices to China.
 








 
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