I just bought my first press brake and I need help with the CNC issues/tooling.

[Novakis]

I just purchased a 1988 Amada Promecam ITP2 125 Ton X 10' 4 Axis press brake with almost no knowledge of press brakes (I know, poor choice, but I figured I could figure it out like I have with everything else). The CNC portion of the machine is ancient and not in the greatest of conditions, I didn't really consider it an issue because the seller told me it was in working condition. When we got the brake and converted it to our shops power (system (machine - 660V 3PH, shop - 230V 1PH with Phase Converter) the controller was unresponsive, it would randomly flash symbols and static. After a couple of "taps" to the controller it started working properly and I was able to enter the parameters. One problem after another just kept popping up but as of today the back gauge works perfectly but the pump won't start for some reason (even though it did work for me before). I have called Amada for some sort of assistance but the best I got from them was an old manual that wasn't even for my brake. I don't where to start and I got a little over my head on this, so here are the questions:

1. Can the CNC be salvaged? Should I just say screw and see if I can find some sort of conversion kit? And if so, where should I start?

2. If it can be salvaged, who can I talk to about repairs? I'm located in Phoenix, AZ and as best as I can tell this machine was made in France so I'm not really sure where to begin looking for an expert.

3. I'm hoping to use this machine for my current business making HVAC ductwork and roof flashing. What kind of tooling should I be looking for? I usually work with 10' 24GA Galvanized Steel, 8' 16GA Black Iron, and 18GA Galvanized Steel for roof curbs. The bends can very from only a 10º to nearly 130º, and I'm hoping I can get one set of tools (though I'm sure I'm asking for too much).

Any help I can get you guys can give me would be very much appreciated. I've been doing this since I was 17 and after 13 years I still feel like I know nothing about my industry. Thanks for listening everyone!

 

[JP Machining]

I have no clue if the current control is repairable or not, and below is my experience so far in converting my inoperable press brake.

What I found for brake controllers is these guys iControl - The iCON controller for sheet metal machines.
Us importer - controlretrofit.com
I have not bought mine yet but do plan on one from them, and the tech have been very helpful in getting my straightened out with what all I need to do to hook it up etc and any other questions I've had on it.
By far the cheapest at just $7k for a 6 axis controller, less for 4 axis, but still seems to do everything I want it to do. There are other good options as well but the price starts climbing fast and if you don't need 3d programming and all the other fancy bells and whistles why pay for them.

As for tooling you should be able to run acute 130 degree punch and die (appropriately sized for the material thickness) and do any bends from 0-130 easily, I think it will even do bump bends for large radius curves but not positive on that yet as I don't have mine running yet.

 

[bryan_machine]

When you say you "tapped" the controller and it came to life and the backgauge works perfectly, that makes me suspect (but I cannot know) that:
1. The controller might be OK.
2. You should check the physical soundness of all connections on the machine, that all boards are properly seated, that wires properly terminated, ground is sound, and so forth.
3. RE - the pump - might be the only thing on the machine that is actually 3-phase - is it getting the right voltage and the right phase order? (On my 5-axis mill, after a move, everything came up fine except the hydraulic pump - turns out that's the only motor on the machine that sees wall power more or less direct, all of the others go through inverters....) Note that the controller is surely being fed by some kind of transformer and maybe inverter, and may well not see phasing at all.

 

[Novakis]

I can confirm that the pump is getting the proper power because I can trip the contactor manually, and it seems to run just fine. I'm pretty sure that the contactor is working as well because if I run power directly to the relay, it starts the pump up no problem. The frustrating part about all this is that it WAS working, I even cycled a test job a couple of times, but then randomly it just stopped turning the pump on. We just don't know enough about the massive bundle of wires that is the control box and the wiring diagrams look like they are straight out of the Old Testament.

 

[dkmc]

So just curious, was it elephants or wild horses that stampeded over that control panel?

Yikes....

 

[Novakis]

RIGHT!? I get that there is wear and tear over time on machines, but this thing looks like someone was using a belt sander to press buttons.

 

[dkmc]

Now yer gonna tell us you got the machine (delivered) for like $2500 and expect us to feel sorry for you....


BTW, 3 posts.....welcome to PM.
Your initiation has officially just begun.

 

[Novakis]

Now yer gonna tell us you got the machine (delivered) for like $2500 and expect us to feel sorry for you....


BTW, 3 posts.....welcome to PM.
Your initiation has officially just begun.

God I wish, though I do know enough about press brakes to say that I did get it for a pretty good price. Delivery and the cost of a new pump was almost the same as the machine.

And thanks for the welcome! Haven't really been able to look around too much because I spent most of my time on: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...rt-ot-things-cutomers-do-agrevate-you-307826/

 

[Edster]

I don't know a whole lot about bending roof flashing, but when our house was built all the flashing was bent on site. Isn't that pressbrake a little overkill?

Amada's are very nice machines, hope you get yours working.

 

[adama]

I have only ran more modern amada cnc press brakes, INtuative is not a a term that could be applied to em! As controls go, yeah there powerful, but god are they baste reds. Lots of quirks, lots of correctly ordered things + you have to have all the tooling set - programmed right for it to let it run.

Equally pump on the newer ones only runs when its needed. Everything needs to be right for the pump to run, you then need to start it and home it correctly. Intill its homed it won't run in normal programme mode and certainly won't let you start the pump - try to run a programme.

That said, weres the key in the power switch? Normally you have to turn it to the position its in your pic to turn the control on, then a momentry turn to the motor - bottom position to start the motor, you need the correct manual, nothing else will help you!

 

[Novakis]

I don't know a whole lot about bending roof flashing, but when our house was built all the flashing was bent on site. Isn't that pressbrake a little overkill?

Amada's are very nice machines, hope you get yours working.

The stuff you are talking about is usually common and made in 1000' at a time. When it comes to orders we get they tend to be very custom, and usually at small quantities. We use a 10' manual apron brake now for everything we do, I was just hoping to speed up what we were currently doing while also reducing fatigue.

 

[Novakis]

I have only ran more modern amada cnc press brakes, INtuative is not a a term that could be applied to em! As controls go, yeah there powerful, but god are they baste reds. Lots of quirks, lots of correctly ordered things + you have to have all the tooling set - programmed right for it to let it run.

Equally pump on the newer ones only runs when its needed. Everything needs to be right for the pump to run, you then need to start it and home it correctly. Intill its homed it won't run in normal programme mode and certainly won't let you start the pump - try to run a programme.

That said, weres the key in the power switch? Normally you have to turn it to the position its in your pic to turn the control on, then a momentry turn to the motor - bottom position to start the motor, you need the correct manual, nothing else will help you!

The pump on this one is the exact same (needing all parameters/tools set before anything can be turned on) and it did take a while for me to figure out all that. Which, by the way, on the die portion of the input WTF DOES MUTE MEAN!?

Funny enough the key is actually broken inside of the switch so there's no problem there (sort of), and like I said before I have been able to make the machine run. I even got it to work as if was bending a job, that's actually when it stopped working. After making the machine do a couple of cycles I pressed the pedal again and the pump kicked off, after that I couldn't get it to run again.

 

[adama]

Check out the power supplies in the cabinet, my guess you have a fuse blown some were in the control side. Amada love there pcb mounted fuse holders and the age of this thing and its apparent condition, its fair to say expect more electrical gremlins going forwards.

 

[3t3d]

The key might be that you are running a phase converter at 240 volts.. And it was re-wired from 660 volts.

Converters have a Wild Leg that can be 208volts or so to neutral. The other two phases are 120 to neutral.
It could be that the controls are getting power from the Wild Leg.

Make sure that all the power to the controls, and generally everything is NOT getting power from the WILD LEG.
That should Only be feeding the motors.

If you tapped it and it started to act smarter, it sounds like a loose connection after the big move.
Can you pull out, clean and re-seat the boards? Check ALL connections as suggested...
Clean out the cabinets, was this machine ran next to a copper sanding station? The electronics now coated in something bad?

Good luck!

 

[Novakis]

Check out the power supplies in the cabinet, my guess you have a fuse blown some were in the control side. Amada love there pcb mounted fuse holders and the age of this thing and its apparent condition, its fair to say expect more electrical gremlins going forwards.

The only fuses I could find on the machine were the ones on the transformers, though I'm sure you're right about something getting kicked off... just not sure where to start.

 

[Novakis]

OKAY! So for some reason I decided to disconnect the foot pedal from the machine and tried to start it up... and it did. I connected the pedal back in to see what would happen... and it still worked. It's working just fine now... I don't know what to do.

 

[3t3d]

It sounds like something is --- intermittent --- 94% caused by a loose connection....
Check/tighten all the connections, re-seat any connections, etc..

Better to go through it now than when buried with a super HOTT job.
And verify that the Wild Leg is not feeding any part of the control.

 

[Novakis]

It sounds like something is --- intermittent --- 94% caused by a loose connection....
Check/tighten all the connections, re-seat any connections, etc..

Better to go through it now than when buried with a super HOTT job.
And verify that the Wild Leg is not feeding any part of the control.

I checked with the tech that wired the brake and says he's sure that the phase converter is setup correctly and the pump is the only part that is receiving that leg. Being my brother he does fuck with me a lot, but I do trust him when it comes to analog electronics.

I'll run through all the connections again as much as I can, but I'm pretty sure I'm just going to have to start a budget to get the controls retrofitted. Now all I need is some tooling to get this thing started... which I'm sure will be easy.

 

[metlmunchr]

3. I'm hoping to use this machine for my current business making HVAC ductwork and roof flashing. What kind of tooling should I be looking for? I usually work with 10' 24GA Galvanized Steel, 8' 16GA Black Iron, and 18GA Galvanized Steel for roof curbs. The bends can very from only a 10º to nearly 130º, and I'm hoping I can get one set of tools (though I'm sure I'm asking for too much).

You'll need a 90* bottoming die set to hold the corners tight enough on light gauge ductwork. Typical air bending dies will give you too much corner radius on the half sections. I have both types of dies and know this for a fact. A lower die with a 1/2" opening width will handle anything 16 gauge and lighter.

For the upper punch, I'd go with a gooseneck style as it will allow you to do both standard bends as on ductwork half sections as well as having the ability to do things like the flange on the top of a curb where it turns out and then down on a couple of fairly close back to back bends.

From personal experience, this should take care of everything 90* or less with good results. Greater than 90 bends will require a different die set, but that's something you could keep an eye out for in the used market. Generally, a small sharp V die set will go much cheaper in the used market than a 90* set because its much less versatile. In the meantime you can continue to do the sharper bends on the hand brake, and I suspect you'll find its not even worth having the sharp V set once you consider the time required to change dies. My dad was in the duct making business for 40+ years and never saw the need to justify a sharp V set even though he bought the first Chicago Speedibender (a hydraulic press brake built specifically for ductwork and related bending) ever sold, back in the mid 60's.

 

[Novakis]

You'll need a 90* bottoming die set to hold the corners tight enough on light gauge ductwork. Typical air bending dies will give you too much corner radius on the half sections. I have both types of dies and know this for a fact. A lower die with a 1/2" opening width will handle anything 16 gauge and lighter.

For the upper punch, I'd go with a gooseneck style as it will allow you to do both standard bends as on ductwork half sections as well as having the ability to do things like the flange on the top of a curb where it turns out and then down on a couple of fairly close back to back bends.

From personal experience, this should take care of everything 90* or less with good results. Greater than 90 bends will require a different die set, but that's something you could keep an eye out for in the used market. Generally, a small sharp V die set will go much cheaper in the used market than a 90* set because its much less versatile. In the meantime you can continue to do the sharper bends on the hand brake, and I suspect you'll find its not even worth having the sharp V set once you consider the time required to change dies. My dad was in the duct making business for 40+ years and never saw the need to justify a sharp V set even though he bought the first Chicago Speedibender (a hydraulic press brake built specifically for ductwork and related bending) ever sold, back in the mid 60's.

Awesome advice, thank you man!