I keep hearing that this winter will be bad for manufacturing in Europe.

[Trueturning]

I am not skirting
that would be uhh, someone else

Again you are beating around the bush.

And one again. Tell me how one State as a focus that can/will go totally green as sustainable in one to 5 years and what equipment would need to be installed and what is the projected electric rate and the total infrastructure cost.

Then tell us who pays for it all.

 

[BoxcarPete]

You mean like I explicitly stated in my post?

Yeah, sure, you said "not carbon zero" but read the implication of your statements below:

what is better than local energy with no cost of fuel?

[snip]

Last line of defense?
How about solar panels on your roof as the last line of defense, rather than a freighter full of oil at whatever price Wall Street decides today?

Freedom was saying "I can store liquid hydrocarbon fuels indefinitely, this makes them valuable as an alternative when grid is unavailable" and you seem to be stating that onsite solar is as good or better for that purpose. The issue is that it's not, not for that. It's great for lowering your personal year-average energy costs, but it's not nearly as solid as a backup plan.

Edit to add: Back-of-the envelope calculation says a 500 gallon diesel tank can get you half a year's energy without too much trouble. Electricity storage of that scale would be completely inaccessible to a homeowner.

 

[john.k]

500 gallons is 10 drums.......I used to get 12 drums every week from the refinery (3 pallets x 4 drums) ......put diesel bio- add in it all ,and the last of it was crystal clear 8 years later........ it wasnt regular pump diesel,but some kind of refinery feed stock ...anyhoo ,it was free to contractors ,and the key to the pump was nothing more than a magnet on a stick.

 

[gustafson]

Yeah, sure, you said "not carbon zero" but read the implication of your statements below:



Freedom was saying "I can store liquid hydrocarbon fuels indefinitely, this makes them valuable as an alternative when grid is unavailable" and you seem to be stating that onsite solar is as good or better for that purpose. The issue is that it's not, not for that. It's great for lowering your personal year-average energy costs, but it's not nearly as solid as a backup plan.

Edit to add: Back-of-the envelope calculation says a 500 gallon diesel tank can get you half a year's energy without too much trouble. Electricity storage of that scale would be completely inaccessible to a homeowner.

If you were without sun for a half a year, you would have greater problems than energy sources
I imagine a prepper could last half a year on 500 gallons, but generating all the electricity and heat for a regular house? I think not
That 500 gallons of diesel costs how much?
Pretty good way towards buying solar panels

 

[gustafson]

Again you are beating around the bush.

And one again. Tell me how one State as a focus that can/will go totally green as sustainable in one to 5 years and what equipment would need to be installed and what is the projected electric rate and the total infrastructure cost.

Then tell us who pays for it all.

Oh please do make up a story, then ask someone else to defend it.
No I will not

No I am not beating around the bush, statement I responded to was categorically false

 

[Mark Rand]

The reason that Europe, China, the US and other countries use solar and wind power is that the 'fuel' is free and the capital cost is low. With nuclear, the fuel is, to all intents and purposes, free even with storage and recycling, but the capital cost is much higher ditto with large hydro. Since the vast majority of the cost of a power station, whether gas or coal, is fuel over its working life, you save money over all even if you need to use combined cycle gas plants in the winter, at night or in poor weather.

 

[john.k]

All sorts of wind projects coming online here...........the alarming feature ..to me....is every one is being built by foreigners....French,South Koreans ,Chinese,US.....we will the same kind of prisoners as we were to the oil sheiks ......are we to be the new peasants beholden to foreigners?

 

[gustafson]

All sorts of wind projects coming online here...........the alarming feature ..to me....is every one is being built by foreigners....French,South Koreans ,Chinese,US.....we will the same kind of prisoners as we were to the oil sheiks ......are we to be the new peasants beholden to foreigners?

When the Chinese figure out how to stop the wind from blowing, you let me know......

 

[JoeE.]

When the Chinese figure out how to stop the wind from blowing, you let me know......

Excellent rebuttal. You win the internet today!

 

[michiganbuck]

Wind power is not free, one has to build the machine, provide maintenance, sometimes lease the space, and hope it pays back more than all the costs.

 

[gustafson]

Wind power is not free, one has to build the machine, provide maintenance, sometimes lease the space, and hope it pays back more than all the costs.

Of course
But with fossil fuel power, one must do all that and the pay for the fuel to run it. And deal with the megalomaniacs who possess it

 

[Trueturning]

All sorts of wind projects coming online here...........the alarming feature ..to me....is every one is being built by foreigners....French,South Koreans ,Chinese,US.....we will the same kind of prisoners as we were to the oil sheiks ......are we to be the new peasants beholden to foreigners?

OPEC plus is talking cutting production. Several OPEC plus countries will not be harmed because they are at max available production now. Saudi and others have excess.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/10/05/opec-plus-oil-cut-russia-saudi-arabia/

 

[standardparts]

Of course
But with fossil fuel power, one must do all that and the pay for the fuel to run it. And deal with the megalomaniacs who possess it

"A megalomaniac is a pathological egotist, that is, someone with a psychological disorder with symptoms like delusions of grandeur and an obsession with power. We also use the word megalomaniac more informally for people who behave as if they're convinced of their absolute power and greatness."

Seems like the world has plenty of 'megalomaniacs' of all shapes, sizes, genders, and political persuasions.

Energy, the thing that is needed to support society represents power and as we are currently seeing, countries (led my megalomaniacs ?) will wield military and financial forces to control it.

Energy---no matter what form it takes, fossil, hydro, solar, wind, will be controlled by those who wield power. Sure, some view solar and sun as free. Maybe it is, but the means to gather and distribute it will be controlled and exploited the same as fossil fuels. Always has--Always will be.

 

[Trueturning]

Wind power is not free, one has to build the machine, provide maintenance, sometimes lease the space, and hope it pays back more than all the costs.

That is all we are saying. Just like if you replace a 60 watt bull with a 20 watt everyone knows they have to buy one to get the savings. If a third world standard was the norm for the US and Europe anyway this may not even be discussed much by us. We like a stable energy delivery and yes that includes Green and other things.

Few are against solar and wind yet the reality settles down after all the backup storage and so on is in place.

No one means to be hostile pointing out the drop of wind averages or how weather may effect solar nor talking about how the coming winter will effect Manufacturing in Europe when there is a war going on to boot. Many people are displaced mostly women to other countries.

It cost a lot to give jobs and housing plus food and medical to these persons and higher energy costs makes it harder. Being gruffly about the discussion is not needed really. What people want to see for example is like Han did his place.
I do not recall his battery storage nor the country where he found his best deal yet those are manufacturing questions for a thread like this. Everyone knows fossil fuels are needed to make all of these things for now.

One can hope for the future to turn out well a certain way yet most I think want to understand what will happen and the cost.

 

[gustafson]

"A megalomaniac is a pathological egotist, that is, someone with a psychological disorder with symptoms like delusions of grandeur and an obsession with power. We also use the word megalomaniac more informally for people who behave as if they're convinced of their absolute power and greatness."

Seems like the world has plenty of 'megalomaniacs' of all shapes, sizes, genders, and political persuasions.

Energy, the thing that is needed to support society represents power and as we are currently seeing, countries (led my megalomaniacs ?) will wield military and financial forces to control it.

Energy---no matter what form it takes, fossil, hydro, solar, wind, will be controlled by those who wield power. Sure, some view solar and sun as free. Maybe it is, but the means to gather and distribute it will be controlled and exploited the same as fossil fuels. Always has--Always will be.

Well, it will be difficult to control the sun shining on my roof, or the wind blowing in my state, but of course you are correct about power and how energy is used. Remember how we didn't care about OPEC and how low oil prices got, and then Americans got addicted to giant fuel hogging cars.....imagine if we had continued as we were in the late 70s and Reagan hadn't hobbled CAFE.


Ahh well.
The way to control the costs of such things is improving efficiency. Russia is proving to everyone that the reliance on fossil fuels is a fools game

 

[Trueturning]

"A megalomaniac is a pathological egotist, that is, someone with a psychological disorder with symptoms like delusions of grandeur and an obsession with power. We also use the word megalomaniac more informally for people who behave as if they're convinced of their absolute power and greatness."

Seems like the world has plenty of 'megalomaniacs' of all shapes, sizes, genders, and political persuasions.

Energy, the thing that is needed to support society represents power and as we are currently seeing, countries (led my megalomaniacs ?) will wield military and financial forces to control it.

Energy---no matter what form it takes, fossil, hydro, solar, wind, will be controlled by those who wield power. Sure, some view solar and sun as free. Maybe it is, but the means to gather and distribute it will be controlled and exploited the same as fossil fuels. Always has--Always will be.

A broad psychological term perhaps to some? What leaders are seen such? Mr. Putin? I am sure the list varies.

 

[Trueturning]

Well, it will be difficult to control the sun shining on my roof, or the wind blowing in my state, but of course you are correct about power and how energy is used. Remember how we didn't care about OPEC and how low oil prices got, and then Americans got addicted to giant fuel hogging cars.....imagine if we had continued as we were in the late 70s and Reagan hadn't hobbled CAFE.


Ahh well.
The way to control the costs of such things is improving efficiency. Russia is proving to everyone that the reliance on fossil fuels is a fools game

If the green comes on strong and efficient then it will reduce the fossil fuel industry. There comes a point with excessive powered groups and persons where customers will get angry and find alternatives. Solar, wind, nuclear, and maybe even Hydrogen could fill the gap.

 

[Trueturning]

If the green comes on strong and efficient then it will reduce the fossil fuel industry. There comes a point with excessive powered groups and persons where customers will get angry and find alternatives. Solar, wind, nuclear, and maybe even Hydrogen could fill the gap.

I hope the optimism and progress on Green has a breakthrough yet I still feel the current inventory will be sold off first at high cost. Governments altering fuel production for current needs is always a problem.

They have it and they give the price that is charged its supply and demand based. That effects it from the start and always will. Like the sun and wind at Gus‘ home short of a weather machine he may be building at his shop what other viable paths coming? I see rationing like is being done already. I hope the winter is not too extreme if it is we might see a uptic of migration to the US from Europe if we do not have it as bad here.

 

[hanermo]

Wind power is not free, one has to build the machine, provide maintenance, sometimes lease the space, and hope it pays back more than all the costs.

Absolutely.

Most past wind power projects later than 4 years old were generally mostly driven by political bribes, aka subsidies in the PPA agreements, guaranteeing excess subventions to the builders.
A large wind turbine uses about 600 tons of foundation.
Lots of steel, concrete, work, etc.
Likewise, huge bribes aka permits were given to landowners, and to electricity companies in "fees" to build the big high-voltage lines of high capacity etc. to the sites, and so on.

This was in the past, 5-15 years ago, and mostly done because wind power projects of 3-4 MW each tower, often in parks of 30++, could provide quick solutions in less than 2 years, 1 year sometimes, of high capacity "clean power" and high nr of jobs during construction.
It looked good politically.

But what happened, during the last 4-5 years, is that the power companies started to want the wind turbines, and increasingly refused to pay the political bribes for permits, easements, access, power lines etc.
Thats because the wind turbines TODAY of around 5-6 MW provide power at around 4-5 c/kWh, and wind tends to run at evenings, and the power companies can turn off peaker gas plants at 50c++/kWh.

Wind power tends to cost around 4 c and is quite reliable when averaged around a large area like a state.
Wind helps reduce fossil fuel peaker plants, and consumables use in fossil fuel plants, by around 90%.

The real cost of wind power is mostly a function of turbine size, in D aka diameter.
The efficiency and power is a power of 2 or power of three vs D of turbine.
Thus large wind turbines are very good, and small ones are silly, by environmental and engineering stds.
Current sizes are around 5-6 MW and 130 M in turbine Diameter, afaik.

A 6 MW wind turbine will provide power at about half the cost of a 3 MW turbine from 15 years ago.
Minus the old-turbine political costs of feed-in lines (aka bribes) and so on.

 

[hanermo]

You have a right to Your opinion.
For about 2-3 years 99% of all new power stations permits and installations in all the world have been wind and PV.
Mostly because it is really, really, cheap.
And really, really safe vs other options.

PPAs that power companies sign for the builders to provide power for 20 years trend to around 3 cents for PV and 4-8 cents for wind.

The current silly NS2-pipeline driven ukraine war creating the EU natgas-driven huge power cost spike is likely to encourage huge uptake of PV installations in Spain, and all southern EU from germany downwards.
300+ new PV companies in Spain are already installing massive amounts of distributed household PV.

Within about 6-12 months this will have an effect on the total energy use in Spain, and the fossil fuel needs overall in the EU.
Same applies pretty much to france, germany, portugal, italy.

Example:
With my newish 10 kW PV array I am not net zero but actually deliver about 3x more energy to the grid than I use.
This saves me about 70% of money monthly vs oil heating and electrics.

Last old energy bill was 400€ /mo, current around 100€, going down with the better electrical installation I am working on now.
Power bill for heating 3000€ plus / year going down to about 500€ /yr (with PV and heat pump with water).
Saving around another 200-230€/month.


When or if southern europe stops needing so much oil and gas, due to significantly reduced demand the market prices will reduce and the northern countries will also enjoy the benefits in €€.

About 6 years ago in a tsla thread iirc I said that the oecd world will drastically reduce fossil fuel use soon -
not because of green, but because of money.
I repeat the point, and think it will happen.
I am seeing it happen every day.
Endless vans and cars of PV-xxx and solar-xxx are moving everywhere, and installing massive amount of new PV panels.
The tragedy is that most homeowners pay far too much and install far too little and lose most of the profits to the developers.


Today, in the EU, we are in an energy crisis of short duration.
Where PV starts to solve the situation, there will be no political will to turn it back.

PV wont heat houses at night, but a house heated free via PV will only need 1/10 the conventional energy to keep it warm.

I hope the optimism and progress on Green has a breakthrough yet I still feel the current inventory will be sold off first at high cost. Governments altering fuel production for current needs is always a problem.

They have it and they give the price that is charged its supply and demand based.