I keep hearing that this winter will be bad for manufacturing in Europe.

[Straightedge]

This thread is exactly like having a TV tuned to Fox News arguing with a TV tuned to MSNBC.

 

[CalG]

A view of eastern Ukraine over some past years. For those interested in how things really are.

Not much manufacturing potential under such adversity.

Anne Laure Bonnel -- Fired for Telling the Truth About Ukraine #2 : Anne Laure Bonnel : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

I am going to the Donbass. The area is under fire from the Ukrainian government. I'm filming the civilians.------------------------(Videos Russian Language...

archive.org

Who would do that to others?

 

[SeymourDumore]

Who would do that to others?

Curious, have you watched her documentary?
I did, and it's a goddam shame it was never made mandatory watching for all to see!
In case you've missed it, can be found here:

If you don't have the whole hour, just watch the end, starting at 49:30 and tell me what you take away from it!

 

[standardparts]

This thread is exactly like having a TV tuned to Fox News arguing with a TV tuned to MSNBC.

So give us a first hand report from Germany......

 

[CalG]

Curious, have you watched her documentary?
I did, and it's a goddam shame it was never made mandatory watching for all to see!
In case you've missed it, can be found here:

If you don't have the whole hour, just watch the end, starting at 49:30 and tell me what you take away from it!

Age restricted ;-(

 

[CalG]

Curious, have you watched her documentary?
I did, and it's a goddam shame it was never made mandatory watching for all to see!
In case you've missed it, can be found here:

If you don't have the whole hour, just watch the end, starting at 49:30 and tell me what you take away from it!

Yes, I viewed that full documentary some months back. sobering. Truth can be painful.
What has a front, has a back

 

[SeymourDumore]

Age restricted ;-(

Yes, and that is just another example of the utter lack of common sense at the Youtube censorship.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Yes, I viewed that full documentary some months back. sobering. Truth can be painful.
What has a front, has a back

Truth can be painful.
Also onesided if that's how you wish to present it.

But, you did say "what has a front, also has a back" so ...

 

[CalG]

Truth can be painful.
Also onesided if that's how you wish to present it.

But, you did say "what has a front, also has a back" so ...

Have you seen that video with McCain and L.Graham assuring the Ukraine military/ color revolutionaries after Maidan "We are with you"?

The destruction of the Ukraine is long in the making.

How quickly we forget.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Have you seen that video with McCain and L.Graham assuring the Ukraine military/ color revolutionaries after Maidan "We are with you"?

Yes, but I fail to see the relevance with respect to your point.

If the McCain/Graham ( or similar ) statements were to be used as a justification for Vlad's war ( as is often proclaimed by prominent figures even on PM ), then NATO and European Union memberships would be the appropriate talking point.

And yet, you are talking about the atrocities ( yes, plenty abound ) committed by the non government sanctioned, though widely ignored Ukranian nationalists instead.
(Yes, some of those were and still are pretty straight up Nazi believers)

So which is it?

 

[standardparts]

Yes, but I fail to see the relevance with respect to your point.

If the McCain/Graham ( or similar ) statements were to be used as a justification for Vlad's war ( as is often proclaimed by prominent figures even on PM ), then NATO and European Union memberships would be the appropriate talking point.

And yet, you are talking about the atrocities ( yes, plenty abound ) committed by the non government sanctioned, though widely ignored Ukranian nationalists instead.
(Yes, some of those were and still are pretty straight up Nazi believers)

So which is it?

NATO and EU membership.....maybe Ukraine represents too great a risk to NATO which is a money sponge and pays a whole lot of people to do very little militarily----same with the EU which seems to be a clever way to re-distribut wealth and carry out social change. The EU seemed perfectly fine with Russia as long as energy was cheap and plentiful.

Just an opinion from someone looking from afar.

 

[Ries]

NATO and EU membership.....maybe Ukraine represents too great a risk to NATO which is a money sponge and pays a whole lot of people to do very little militarily----same with the EU which seems to be a clever way to re-distribut wealth and carry out social change. The EU seemed perfectly fine with Russia as long as energy was cheap and plentiful.

Just an opinion from someone looking from afar.

I dont think you understand what NATO is. Its a treaty organisation, whereby countries agree to support each other if attacked. NATO doesnt "sponge" money. Each individual country decides what to spend on their own military, and those militaries get together for "NATO" purposes, but no soldier works for NATO. Each country decides on its own how much to spend on their military, although NATO recommends a percentage of GDP, there is no enforcement mechanism to make a country spend more or less.
Here is a chart showing recent miltary spending per NATO member as a percentage of GDP.
Remember, this is total military spending per country, there is no NATO specific portion of our military budget.

Where NATO Defense Expenditure Stands In 2022 [Infographic]

Data published this week by the military alliance shows that defense expenditure as a share of GDP reached a high in 2020 in many countries and decreased starting from 2021 in the course of the coronavirus pandemic and coinciding with the end of the Trump presidency.

www.forbes.com

 

[standardparts]

"Its a treaty organisation, whereby countries agree to support each other if attacked."
Exactly why it would be a bad choice to allow Ukraine to be a NATO member because then the members countries would actually have to respond militarily, which of course would be a be problem because many of the NATO members have obsolete or degraded military. Germany is probably the greatest example.

Anyway----Being on the NATO payroll and on staff at NATO headquarters in Brussels got to be a great gig because the only time NATO has ever been activated in 70 years is for a short time during 9-11.

Upside is since many of the NATO members rely in U.S. defense contractors and consultants it certainly results in lots of work for U.S. industries like Boeing.

 

[michiganbuck]

Nato in an agreement countries pay for the rights and privileges.

Is like independent job shops demanding union wages and benefits. Sure it would be nice if everybody was getting the best Bennis, but that is not how it works..It would be nice if everybody in the world was wealthy/safe/ content / well fed/ happy...
NATO to take on Russia would most likely start a world war...just stupid.
Sure we would win, with the USA and Russia leveled..but I would be dead..

 

[standardparts]

Nato in an agreement countries pay for the rights and privileges.

Is like independent job shops demanding union wages and benefits. Sure it would be nice if everybody was getting the best Bennis, but that is not how it works..It would be nice if everybody in the world was wealthy/safe/ content / well fed/ happy...
NATO to take on Russia would most likely start a world war...just stupid.
Sure we would win, with the USA and Russia leveled..but I would be dead..

Well 'Buck' sure is a lot of musical chairs ongoing in Euro political leadership along with the upcoming midterms. We just might see the 'mother of all October surprises'!

Until that time...make chips and make money$$$$$$$

 

[michiganbuck]

Mostly foolish governments make wars, lately IMHO foolish agendas pit every one group against the other, I don't know to what end or where it will go... T against B keeps people unable to sleep at night, People are trying to conquer USA black/white problems, and conservative to liberal thinking is going to the farthest limits. It seems many countries are all of a sudden in this rage to make a change at everything.
It may be the internet and too many common people thinking past local and family issues and now engaged in trying to change world issues with being ill-informed and easily convinced/brainwashed.

*In Ukraine..did the Luzinski government allow/encourage persecution of the Russain speaking people?
*Was Russia justified in invading Ukraine?
*How can this situation be ended with not starting WW3?

It seems that it is not just manufacturing in Europe in disarray but much of the world is in disarray and due to a hard winter.​

​

..

 

[jim rozen]

"conservative to liberal thinking is going to the farthest limits."

Yeah don't you just hate it when liberals invade the capitol to try to overturn an election when a conservative's elected. Those darn pesky libs!

 

[Trueturning]

Here in the US there is winter coming and the cost of heating has risen. Some areas are concerned there will be problems like around the New England States/area. Shortages in Europe has meant more imports of NLP from the U.S. and so now there is completion for the resource. It looks like there might be short falls in energy.
It seems that manufacturing will prosper where the companies have access to energy. I suppose it will come down to location and available resources. I think those shops which have enough energy will likely prosper and if it is a long term problem they will profit.

I feel that supply issues in other things will be effected to perhaps in metals. It stands to reason where there are metal producers in the U.S. that they would be critical and so shops close in proximity to those metals producers would likely be ok being as they are close to the metal makers.

The Metal makers would be critical industry and so they would likely secure energy to operate.

 

[Ries]

Anyway----Being on the NATO payroll and on staff at NATO headquarters in Brussels got to be a great gig because the only time NATO has ever been activated in 70 years is for a short time during 9-11.

While there are some civilian employees in Belgium, most people who work at NATO headquarters are serving members of various countries military. That would include somewhere between 2000 and 3000 US troops stationed in Brussels. They are just regular US soldiers, they dont get to slack off because NATO itself is not currently fielding soldiers in an active war zone. Many US military personell have worked on NATO related jobs while stationed in Europe, for the entire 70 years. Its just another posting.

 

[standardparts]

While there are some civilian employees in Belgium, most people who work at NATO headquarters are serving members of various countries military. That would include somewhere between 2000 and 3000 US troops stationed in Brussels. They are just regular US soldiers, they dont get to slack off because NATO itself is not currently fielding soldiers in an active war zone. Many US military personell have worked on NATO related jobs while stationed in Europe, for the entire 70 years. Its just another posting.

In addition to U.S. assets in Brussels the last numbers for U.S. troops in Europe in support of NATO is in excess of 100,000.
Wonder what that represents in total costs?
70 years is a long time to protect the EU from the threat of Russian invasion. Maybe the proxy war in Ukraine the U.S. is supporting is designed to be regime change? Would not be the first time.