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I think I need a turret lathe?

FJsapper

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 18, 2020
I have two nearly identical products that need more speed than a standard engine lathe can provide but I don’t have the pockets or CAD skills to go CNC. It’s taking me longer than I care to admit on a standard lathe. Like 2 hours…don’t laugh my lathe is from 1942 and is a little anemic in the hp department.

Operations require spade drilling a hole of 1-1/2”x12” of 17-4 bar, threading, then flipping, boring out to final ID, then threading the other end. One end needs the OD turned down slightly and I think that could be done simultaneous with the spade drilling. The second product is just shorter.

Tolerances need to be .003” or better but I’d like to stay around half of that if possible. Is that realistic with a middle of the road condition machine? I’m prepared to spend some time dialing everything in to mitigate the operator for what it’s worth.

My reading of the available w&s literature has shown that QCGBs were available but are apparently tough to find. I’m seeing a few out there but the smallest machines I’ve seen with them are the 2A.

I want to keep as concentric as possible and have been single point cutting up to this point with good results. Is that silly to do on a turret lathe? I see there were single point threading drop slides made but not sure how easy those are to find these days.

So what is the consensus? Would a turret lathe fit the bill? I would love to do it all on one machine but if getting a 2A just for the QCGB is completely insane I could always go smaller and cut threads on a regular lathe. I’m just trying to cut cycle time down as much as possible.
 

john.k

Diamond
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Brisbane Qld Australia
There are plenty of other makes than W&S......seems you want to work on 1&1/2 "od bar........firstly ,if so ,you need a capstan lathe ,somewhat lighter than a turret......If you want a bar feed for repetition,then you need a somewhat bigger machine,just for the spindle bore diameter pass......anyhho ,skipping over some,you want single point threading...this can be done in two ways.....neither like on a screwcutting lathe.....first method is a threaded ring mounted on the rear of the spindle/second is to have a short length of leadscrew mounted on the feedscrew.........However ,the normal (quick) method of threading is with a die head of the self opening/releasing type....Coventry ,Geometric,Landis,etc.
 

thermite

Diamond
I have two nearly identical products that need more speed than a standard engine lathe can provide but I don’t have the pockets or CAD skills to go CNC. It’s taking me longer than I care to admit on a standard lathe. Like 2 hours…don’t laugh my lathe is from 1942 and is a little anemic in the hp department.

Operations require spade drilling a hole of 1-1/2”x12” of 17-4 bar, threading, then flipping, boring out to final ID, then threading the other end. One end needs the OD turned down slightly and I think that could be done simultaneous with the spade drilling. The second product is just shorter.

Tolerances need to be .003” or better but I’d like to stay around half of that if possible. Is that realistic with a middle of the road condition machine? I’m prepared to spend some time dialing everything in to mitigate the operator for what it’s worth.

My reading of the available w&s literature has shown that QCGBs were available but are apparently tough to find. I’m seeing a few out there but the smallest machines I’ve seen with them are the 2A.

I want to keep as concentric as possible and have been single point cutting up to this point with good results. Is that silly to do on a turret lathe? I see there were single point threading drop slides made but not sure how easy those are to find these days.

So what is the consensus? Would a turret lathe fit the bill? I would love to do it all on one machine but if getting a 2A just for the QCGB is completely insane I could always go smaller and cut threads on a regular lathe. I’m just trying to cut cycle time down as much as possible.

Sounds to me as if the wiser route would be to contract having the "tubes" made for you by an outfit that already HAS the ability to do it fast and to even tighter spec than .003.

CNC spade drilled or gun drilled.

THEN all you have to do is thread both ends.

Which is apparently already within your capability AND NOT the most time-consuming part of the cycle.

Allied publishes videos on what it takes to do spade drilling FAST and WELL.

- Plenty of high-pressure coolant.

- Plenty of turning power.

- Most of all, a very LARGE ration of FEED power.

You do not seem to have it NOW.

An antique turret/capstan didn't necessarily hit the combinations of "sweet spots", either.

If you need to KEEP this job by hitting quality AND delivery dates?


You should consider reducing your "two hours" worth of losses so you can earn enough to get the machinery to support the need.

ELSE continue to sub out the part you are not properly equipped for.

You'd have to ken "grocery-store arithmetic"?

It isn't about what you can find a way to DO.

It is about how much money is left after the "didit" costs are covered.


2CW
 

johnoder

Diamond
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Location
Houston, TX USA
First thing you could check on is having the bar trepanned to - say - 1 3/8 - full length (assuming you are making more than a few)

See if that is cheaper than farting around making holes - on inadequate machinery
 

thermite

Diamond
Oab and 1Ab have 6" & 7" turret stroke max.

Per my earlier - or John's - best to get the holes made by a shop that is in THAT specialty area of the bizness.

Not as if the OP is the only entity as ever NEEDED that sort of service. There are folks who do it all-day, every day, for long days, as THEIR "rice bowl".

You can break your bank and not catch up with what they already know and have mastered to Day Job dull routine at decently tight specs.
 

kustomizer

Titanium
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Location
North Fork Idaho
I ran a J&L universal turret lathe for a couple years when I was a teen, it would rough drill a 3" hole in 304 while I rough turned the od then it would finish turn the OD while I finish bored the Id, made a bunch of them damned things. It was a fun challenge to balance keeping it going and getting faster at making them. I was 15-16 then, went home dog tired every afternoon, I can't even measure how fast I could spit out "FUCK YOU" if someone wanted me to do it again, I was filling 2 4x4x4 bins every day with stiff heavy shavings from the drill and 5 gallon buckets od 6's and 9's from the 1/4" cut on the ruff od turning. I sure hope those weren't the good old days.
 

thermite

Diamond
I can't even measure how fast I could spit out "FUCK YOU" if someone wanted me to do it again,

"Not fast enuf!"

You'd have to beat 20th January, 1965.

Turrets were kinda like being a cross between a chained oar-monkey on a Roman war galley, timed to the drumbeat of the "Hortater"'s hammers on the drumhead ... and a Rube-Goldberg circus acrobat or downhill Olympic skier.

More sweat than fun, that, but good training to become an instructor in knife and bayonet fighting where nimble and faster is aliver and clumsy and slower is deader.

:(
 

HappyWyo

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 30, 2019
Some years a ago we had a run of 1 3/4" nuts to make. We thought we would save time by using our w&s. We had to toss all the nuts we made on the turret lathe. None of the threads were satisfactory. The w&s just wouldn't rotate slow enough to keep the threads cool enough to make a clean thread. I moved the tap to my engine lathe, slowed the speed all the way down and got good threads. You can't single point on a w&s. I have never seen a turret lathe made for single pointing. We have a assortment of geometrics for our turrets and the smaller threads work fine on the turrets at higher speeds. ( Not as much material is being removed ) I made an attachment to fit my tailstock on my engine lathe so I can run geometrics on my American and I prefer that for most runs, unless the turret is needed for multiple tooling. As far as taking a lot of time goes, all of us who have been in business for any amount of time have had jobs that didn't pay well, it is part of being in any business.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Airstrip One, Oceania
Oab and 1Ab have 6" & 7" turret stroke max.
Both ends. But then, he didn't tell us anything else about the parts. I was going on "he didn't want to get into nc" (can't entirely blame him) but didn't want to stand there cranking a capstan all day either. Running a Gisholt ain't no fun. Gundrill will cost big bucks. AC's have the poop to do the job and should be available for low $$ not entirely extinct like automatic production lathes, that people don't even know what they are anymore ... but yeah, it was just an idea.

Spade drills don't need high pressure coolant, btw. I've run them 15" deep in 304 with no trouble, except the ear-splitting squealing noise. After the first hour the neighbors convinced me to run the rest of the job at night. Late at night :)

Can't think of much else that will be reasonably cheap, not have electronic gremlins, and push a 1 1/2" drill all day without fulltime supervision.

At least if he ran it on a Swasey or Gisholt, he wouldn't need to go to the gym :D
 

HappyWyo

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 30, 2019
At least if he ran it on a Swasey or Gisholt, he wouldn't need to go to the gym :D[/QUOTE]

When we run on our Swasey or Gisholt it takes no more effort than an engine lathe. You just engage the lever and watch it drill. I prefer insert drills, but we have an entire set of spade drills also. I always run with oil coolant, very seldom have any noise.
 
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Airstrip One, Oceania
When we run on our Swasey or Gisholt it takes no more effort than an engine lathe.
Hell, just pulling up the handle on a Gisholt all day would wear me out now ! Spoiled by the green button ... but if'n he was going to do this manually, an enclosure and the drill in a holder with an Enco quick-change would work. Work just as good as buying a dumb turret lathe, anyhow, and be more useful for other stuff.

Can you tell I have unfond memories of running turret lathes ? :D
 

john.k

Diamond
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Brisbane Qld Australia
Happy Wyo....I have a capstan lathe that can single point via a short length of leadscrew that can be moved along the feedscrew to the capstan ....and in my books are several methods of single pointing with any lathe that does NOT have power feed.
 

john.k

Diamond
Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Brisbane Qld Australia
I actually read the OP,and he wants to drill 17-4 to 1 1/2 ".X 12"deep......now the proper method of doing this would be with a hollow cutter -trepanning-not turning a mass of tough steel into chips.
 

spaeth

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Location
emporium pa
Somebody please show me the tool that trepans a 1-1/2" hole 12" deep in Stainless Steel.
The turret lathe seems to be getting slammed pretty hard here. Don't forget that old iron was a huge contributor to American productivity for many years. The OP could benefit from having one for the job he described. A saddle type could drill the 1-1/2" hole and rough turn the OD while he did the finish work on the other lathe. That could even be done with one that already served in WW2. They are good at removing material and probably cost more to move one than to buy one. I'd say go for it if you got the room. I think a Practical Machinist can make a profit with old machines as well as the new.
spaeth
 

johnoder

Diamond
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Location
Houston, TX USA
Somebody please show me the tool that trepans a 1-1/2" hole 12" deep in Stainless Steel.

Don't know about 300 series, but 17-4 would be more likely a candidate - especially if H1025

Tool - which screws on long hollow bar

trepantools_35113-1large.jpg

And the related consumables

Scan 01.jpg

High pressure coolant is put IN on OUTSIDE of long bar/tube and goes OUT the inside of the long bar/tube - along with the fountain of chips being created - all thru the annulus created by the inside of the bar and the outside of the core being created

And NO, I have never seen 17-4 so processed - looks easy in heat treated 4140

Double ended trepanner

Scan 01.jpgScan 02.jpg
I think in the second photo you are looking at the INDUCTION HEAD - and its carriage - which is how the coolant gets into the long hollow bar and work piece. I.E., a sealed system between the 75 HP coolant pump and the chips being made

Related thread

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...built-houston-1975-a-286243/?highlight=making

have fun
 








 
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