I think I need a turret lathe?

[FJsapper]

I have two nearly identical products that need more speed than a standard engine lathe can provide but I don’t have the pockets or CAD skills to go CNC. It’s taking me longer than I care to admit on a standard lathe. Like 2 hours…don’t laugh my lathe is from 1942 and is a little anemic in the hp department.

Operations require spade drilling a hole of 1-1/2”x12” of 17-4 bar, threading, then flipping, boring out to final ID, then threading the other end. One end needs the OD turned down slightly and I think that could be done simultaneous with the spade drilling. The second product is just shorter.

Tolerances need to be .003” or better but I’d like to stay around half of that if possible. Is that realistic with a middle of the road condition machine? I’m prepared to spend some time dialing everything in to mitigate the operator for what it’s worth.

My reading of the available w&s literature has shown that QCGBs were available but are apparently tough to find. I’m seeing a few out there but the smallest machines I’ve seen with them are the 2A.

I want to keep as concentric as possible and have been single point cutting up to this point with good results. Is that silly to do on a turret lathe? I see there were single point threading drop slides made but not sure how easy those are to find these days.

So what is the consensus? Would a turret lathe fit the bill? I would love to do it all on one machine but if getting a 2A just for the QCGB is completely insane I could always go smaller and cut threads on a regular lathe. I’m just trying to cut cycle time down as much as possible.

 

[EmGo]

So what is the consensus? Would a turret lathe fit the bill?

No.

You might do this with am 0 or 1AB or AC (you didn't describe the part super-well) but turret lathe, forget it.

NC is probably where you need to go.

 

[john.k]

There are plenty of other makes than W&S......seems you want to work on 1&1/2 "od bar........firstly ,if so ,you need a capstan lathe ,somewhat lighter than a turret......If you want a bar feed for repetition,then you need a somewhat bigger machine,just for the spindle bore diameter pass......anyhho ,skipping over some,you want single point threading...this can be done in two ways.....neither like on a screwcutting lathe.....first method is a threaded ring mounted on the rear of the spindle/second is to have a short length of leadscrew mounted on the feedscrew.........However ,the normal (quick) method of threading is with a die head of the self opening/releasing type....Coventry ,Geometric,Landis,etc.

 

[EmGo]

There are plenty of other makes than W&S......seems you want to work on 1&1/2 "od bar........

No, he said drill a 1 1/2" hole 12" long so if you want to stand there doing this with with a turret lathe, be my guest ...

 

[DDoug]

Yup, cobble up a drawing, and post it in the resources wanted section.

 

[DDoug]

No.

You might do this with am 0 or 1AB or AC (you didn't describe the part super-well) but turret lathe, forget it.

NC is probably where you need to go.

Oab and 1Ab have 6" & 7" turret stroke max.

 

[johnoder]

First thing you could check on is having the bar trepanned to - say - 1 3/8 - full length (assuming you are making more than a few)

See if that is cheaper than farting around making holes - on inadequate machinery

 

[kustomizer]

I ran a J&L universal turret lathe for a couple years when I was a teen, it would rough drill a 3" hole in 304 while I rough turned the od then it would finish turn the OD while I finish bored the Id, made a bunch of them damned things. It was a fun challenge to balance keeping it going and getting faster at making them. I was 15-16 then, went home dog tired every afternoon, I can't even measure how fast I could spit out "FUCK YOU" if someone wanted me to do it again, I was filling 2 4x4x4 bins every day with stiff heavy shavings from the drill and 5 gallon buckets od 6's and 9's from the 1/4" cut on the ruff od turning. I sure hope those weren't the good old days.

 

[HappyWyo]

Some years a ago we had a run of 1 3/4" nuts to make. We thought we would save time by using our w&s. We had to toss all the nuts we made on the turret lathe. None of the threads were satisfactory. The w&s just wouldn't rotate slow enough to keep the threads cool enough to make a clean thread. I moved the tap to my engine lathe, slowed the speed all the way down and got good threads. You can't single point on a w&s. I have never seen a turret lathe made for single pointing. We have a assortment of geometrics for our turrets and the smaller threads work fine on the turrets at higher speeds. ( Not as much material is being removed ) I made an attachment to fit my tailstock on my engine lathe so I can run geometrics on my American and I prefer that for most runs, unless the turret is needed for multiple tooling. As far as taking a lot of time goes, all of us who have been in business for any amount of time have had jobs that didn't pay well, it is part of being in any business.

 

[EmGo]

Oab and 1Ab have 6" & 7" turret stroke max.

Both ends. But then, he didn't tell us anything else about the parts. I was going on "he didn't want to get into nc" (can't entirely blame him) but didn't want to stand there cranking a capstan all day either. Running a Gisholt ain't no fun. Gundrill will cost big bucks. AC's have the poop to do the job and should be available for low $$ not entirely extinct like automatic production lathes, that people don't even know what they are anymore ... but yeah, it was just an idea.

Spade drills don't need high pressure coolant, btw. I've run them 15" deep in 304 with no trouble, except the ear-splitting squealing noise. After the first hour the neighbors convinced me to run the rest of the job at night. Late at night

Can't think of much else that will be reasonably cheap, not have electronic gremlins, and push a 1 1/2" drill all day without fulltime supervision.

At least if he ran it on a Swasey or Gisholt, he wouldn't need to go to the gym

 

[HappyWyo]

At least if he ran it on a Swasey or Gisholt, he wouldn't need to go to the gym [/QUOTE]

When we run on our Swasey or Gisholt it takes no more effort than an engine lathe. You just engage the lever and watch it drill. I prefer insert drills, but we have an entire set of spade drills also. I always run with oil coolant, very seldom have any noise.

 

[EmGo]

When we run on our Swasey or Gisholt it takes no more effort than an engine lathe.

Hell, just pulling up the handle on a Gisholt all day would wear me out now ! Spoiled by the green button ... but if'n he was going to do this manually, an enclosure and the drill in a holder with an Enco quick-change would work. Work just as good as buying a dumb turret lathe, anyhow, and be more useful for other stuff.

Can you tell I have unfond memories of running turret lathes ?

 

[john.k]

Happy Wyo....I have a capstan lathe that can single point via a short length of leadscrew that can be moved along the feedscrew to the capstan ....and in my books are several methods of single pointing with any lathe that does NOT have power feed.

 

[john.k]

I actually read the OP,and he wants to drill 17-4 to 1 1/2 ".X 12"deep......now the proper method of doing this would be with a hollow cutter -trepanning-not turning a mass of tough steel into chips.

 

[john.k]

The biggest turret lathe I ever saw was made by Ford Motor CO ,and I could touch the roof standing on the turret...I reckon it weighed 20 tons.

 

[spaeth]

Somebody please show me the tool that trepans a 1-1/2" hole 12" deep in Stainless Steel.
The turret lathe seems to be getting slammed pretty hard here. Don't forget that old iron was a huge contributor to American productivity for many years. The OP could benefit from having one for the job he described. A saddle type could drill the 1-1/2" hole and rough turn the OD while he did the finish work on the other lathe. That could even be done with one that already served in WW2. They are good at removing material and probably cost more to move one than to buy one. I'd say go for it if you got the room. I think a Practical Machinist can make a profit with old machines as well as the new.
spaeth

 

[johnoder]

Somebody please show me the tool that trepans a 1-1/2" hole 12" deep in Stainless Steel.

Don't know about 300 series, but 17-4 would be more likely a candidate - especially if H1025

Tool - which screws on long hollow bar



And the related consumables



High pressure coolant is put IN on OUTSIDE of long bar/tube and goes OUT the inside of the long bar/tube - along with the fountain of chips being created - all thru the annulus created by the inside of the bar and the outside of the core being created

And NO, I have never seen 17-4 so processed - looks easy in heat treated 4140

Double ended trepanner


I think in the second photo you are looking at the INDUCTION HEAD - and its carriage - which is how the coolant gets into the long hollow bar and work piece. I.E., a sealed system between the 75 HP coolant pump and the chips being made

Related thread

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...built-houston-1975-a-286243/?highlight=making

have fun

 

[spaeth]

John,
Pretty cool contraption right there. I've done a little trepanning with some backyard tools to get a slug or two from some 1-1/2" long blanks but that's the real deal. I had to go in from both sides. Not to sure that running a 75 HP pump plus the large spindle would be cost effective for the OP's job. A saddle type turret lathe probably does that hole in handy to 20 minutes with a coolant thru spade drill. Maybe have to clear the chips or drill from both sides. While that's going down the guy's on the other lathe. So they make better time with the million dollar machine but not much savings for the little shop. Drilling holes with power feed is a gravy job. They had a W&S 2A at my first shop. Every new guy got to face, drill and rough turn on that old girl. When ever the power feed on the turret was engaged there was a two bells clang on the big wheel with a brass hammer as you heard her getting into the cut. We also had the longest drill chip hanging on the wall that was hard to beat. Mostly tool steel, H-13 or A-6 and back then there was no decarb free material so the W&S would eat bark for breakfast too. Hardly ever scrapped any thing on that machine cause is was roughing and learning.
Sharpen your own drills and tool bits on the bench grinder boss said sharpen it three times if it still don't cut come and see me. Oil it when you come in, clean it before you leave. For 1.10 an hour.....those were the days my friend. No regrets
spaeth

 

[DDoug]

American Hollow Boring is up here in Erie, they doo allot of this stuff.

 

[FJsapper]

I really appreciate the information gentlemen, you have given me a lot to think about. I am in the process of moving and have about four months to come up with a solid game plan. This will include new (old) machinery, power, and a set of logical and efficient job sheets to work off of.

AMEC Spades have been doing well for me on my machine with an aquarium coolant pump. The unpleasant part is my tiny spindle bore means i am hanging bars out and holding with a steady to get the job done. Lots of lost time with setup. It takes about 35min +/- to get 12" of depth and maybe 5-10mins to get set up (batching when possible). I think i would be close to cutting the drill time in half on a bigger lathe. With a secondary machine to do the drilling my setup time would be significantly less as well. I am not sure how much more efficient trepanning would be so I will dig a little deeper on that.

If I can set up a turret/ram machine to do my heavy drilling/turning while I turn around and thread/finish pieces on a standard lathe I would be saving a bunch of time. From all the feedback it seems like doing it all on one machine is not likely.

I acknowledge the business sense of farming out the time consuming drilling part. Unfortunately, I don't think I have the volume right now to justify it. The fact I don't need to put food on the table with this work right now is also a plus (that is the long term goal though). I know for sure that what i am doing right now with one machine is 100% not the way to go...after doing a little quick math i'm probably making $30/hr? Not bad for a garage side gig but not really feasible if I want to make a living.

A great gem I found in some old threads (and i'm paraphrasing) was that the second you get your head buried in machining parts you lose the ability to focus on product development and running the business. I can't recall who said that but it really resonated with me.

Thanks again for all the feedback, seriously, you guys are awesome.