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If you could have one 5 axis as the only machine in your shop

All machines will have issues, they are very comparable to cars in this way. Some cars have absolute garbage designs that can't be fixed no matter what you do. This is also like machines that have been designed and built poorly; You can't get the machine to stop vibrating... you can't get the kinematics to stay in position... these machines are "piles of crap" and I would NEVER buy one.

A perfect comparison using cars, time takes its toll on all things mechanical and electrical. Anything that moves is wearing out when it moves, rate of wear is arguable, but it happens. Plastics get brittle and breakdown over time when constantly exposed to coolant. Even capacitors have a limited lifespan. So yes, like cars, one that wasn’t a pile of crap when it rolled off the assembly line can easily be a pile of crap once it’s seen lots of use causing wear and deterioration of all the systems. If you really want to use cars as a parallel we can talk all day about the German vs Japanese resale values and why that is the way it is. I’m sure that will help your case for dmg. :stirthepot:
 
Adding tool capacity to your machine on the shop floor is always going to be an expensive pain. Best to be done on the factory floor. That way it's just expensive.
Matsuura seems to offer that in a realistic way
 
Also, as empower always touts the GF Mikron, and it is a awesome machine, I have to mention it does have the cantilevered head design that's prone to droop, but also these E U machines and others are Made in CHINA.
GF Mikron EU Made in CHINA
 
Also, as empower always touts the GF Mikron, and it is a awesome machine, I have to mention it does have the cantilevered head design that's prone to droop, but also these E U machines and others are Made in CHINA.
GF Mikron EU Made in CHINA
for sure, not the optimal design, but HH also does a really good job compensating for it. if you want the cream of the crop, their P line is bulletproof and built in switzerland
 
I talked to the Brother Speedio rep in our area yesterday, he said the U500 5 axis will be available in a simultaneous version in around 3-4 months, will be interesting to see a price tag.
I will probably have to get one just to get my 5 axis feet wet.
 
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From what I was told the tool tower on the Mille-E series is a major PITA to field retrofit from the 60 tool setup and is much better ordered that way upfront if needed. Good automation ready machines however.
Didn't know the tool tower was field installable on the E500/700 line. Keep in mind you would need an entirely new coolant tank. Chip conveyor.
 
The toolchanger locked up a lot. And the Laser spanned like a 3 foot distance so picking up small tools was terribly inaccurate. The thermal com sucked too. I think it was the machine design for this particular model, not necessarily intrinsic to Mikron.
In know the machines that have that long laser span. 1150/1350 models. One customer mentioned here has one. Between probing opposite sides of a part and boring from both sides, their results speak for themselves, within several microns.
Probing two bores, once each, 180° apart and nailing the C offset with absolute precision is.a feat in my humble opinion.
 
Tool changes measured in ice ages. )Lol.
I'm a huge fan of Yasda, the PX30i, etc. The Yasda USA team is literally full of great people who really care about their machines. The machine could use some tune ups for speed but it just runs (I'm surprised they haven't implemented any of these since we got ours...machine appears to be just as slow on the new versions). Our 2016 has over 35k hours of cut time on it.

However the whole methods experience has been extremely frustrating for me . (Months for response time on anything other than urgent machine down issues, sending 2 high paid guys to do a simple job = huge labor / travel bills). They wonder why I never bought another one or why I dont answer their emails / calls about asking to have potential customers call me anymore....

Buy machines from people who value your business. The people behind them are what make the iron / name shine after the initial installation.
 
I'm a huge fan of Yasda, the PX30i, etc. The Yasda USA team is literally full of great people who really care about their machines. The machine could use some tune ups for speed but it just runs (I'm surprised they haven't implemented any of these since we got ours...machine appears to be just as slow on the new versions). Our 2016 has over 35k hours of cut time on it.

However the whole methods experience has been extremely frustrating for me . (Months for response time on anything other than urgent machine down issues, sending 2 high paid guys to do a simple job = huge labor / travel bills). They wonder why I never bought another one or why I dont answer their emails / calls about asking to have potential customers call me anymore....

Buy machines from people who value your business. The people behind them are what make the iron / name shine after the initial installation.
Is this Dennis Rathi?
I thought about buying a Methods brand 5 axis, it was super cheap for its size, but I have an Awesome Methods Nakamura lathe, and dealing with them was turtle slow, the opposite of my business model, so I was out on any Methods stuff.
I think to get my 5 axis feet wet at the lowest $$$$ I am going to get one of the Speedio U500 xd1-5ax when they get here, Its about half the cost of anything else I would actually buy (Hermle). And the robot raw stock loader with the camera they have seems to be quite cheaper than a pallet loading system(Erowa) also for a starter rig.
So I figured a good start point.
 
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Did I hear assembly fixtures and composites! I would buy 2 machines. Why run that crap on a good machine? You are not concerned about 10ths on a composite mold and the PITA environmental constraints can be retricted to that lower cost machine.
 
I'm a huge fan of Yasda, the PX30i, etc. The Yasda USA team is literally full of great people who really care about their machines. The machine could use some tune ups for speed but it just runs (I'm surprised they haven't implemented any of these since we got ours...machine appears to be just as slow on the new versions). Our 2016 has over 35k hours of cut time on it.

However the whole methods experience has been extremely frustrating for me . (Months for response time on anything other than urgent machine down issues, sending 2 high paid guys to do a simple job = huge labor / travel bills). They wonder why I never bought another one or why I dont answer their emails / calls about asking to have potential customers call me anymore....

Buy machines from people who value your business. The people behind them are what make the iron / name shine after the initial installation.
I agree absolutely. Yasda themselves is fantastic. We bought two used machines for next to nothing and wanted them gone over top to bottom. Two guys came in dressed very nice and professional, both Japanese, but one was based in the US, and they got in their Tyvek suits and went to work all the way down to the point of removing the tables and re-scraping the ways on site. Everything they did was super clean and absolutely done right and from the second they hit the door they worked straight through each day to get it done. Didn't talk to anyone, even each other really except when they needed extra hands.

Methods is garbage to deal with. They are huge, they know it, and they have you by the b*lls. Responses are slow, they hire young guys to do your turn key projects that don't know what they are doing, and generally don't seem to care, but with their exclusive contracts you don't have an option.
 
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Never buy the first model or a builders secondary control.

Neither of these things is true in this case.

A CNC mill control needs to be exported from Japan either as Full 5 or not, and both Japanese METI laws and the US/Japan trade agreement specify that a control cannot leave Japan as a 4 axis, then be upgraded to full 5 after export. As such, Brother has the standard D00 control on most machines, and offers the D00v for the full 5 axis mills - they are identical controls with the only difference being a firmware lock to keep a D00 from ever getting upgraded to a D00v.

D00 was designed from the ground up for full 5 axis - Brother had the older C00 control doing full 5 axis stuff for a few years, but their own assessment was that it didn't have the processing chops or encoder resolution. I know these were internal to Brother, but they never sold them, even in the Japanese market. The first "full 5" Brother is the M200 Xd1 5Ax.

My region has more U500s and M200 5Ax Speedios than anywhere in the country. These machines are performing *far* better than I ever pitched they would to users. Work that was running on *much* higher spec machines is moving on to these; surface finishes are comparable, accuracy is comparable - but cycle times are Speedio shorter and they cost 1/2 what anything else does.

Would I make a Speedio 5 axis my *only* machine though? I'm guessing for about 25% of the market, I would be able to say that is a good idea. It depends entirely on the goals and the parts you need to make - if everything fits in your hand and you are more volume oriented, or doing captive R&D work internal to a company? Absolutely! If you hung up your shingle as a job shop and need massive flexibility in both parts mix, materials, and a bigger envelope for larger parts? Probably not.

Where I am happy, is walking into any 5 axis shop with Hermles, Yasdas, Makinos, Grobs etc etc, and telling them instead of buying more $500k mills, they can buy a U500 5Ax for around $200k to free up their more expensive spindles, without having to change the process or give up much of anything.
 
However the whole methods experience has been extremely frustrating for me . (Months for response time on anything other than urgent machine down issues, sending 2 high paid guys to do a simple job = huge labor / travel bills). They wonder why I never bought another one or why I dont answer their emails / calls about asking to have potential customers call me anymore....

Buy machines from people who value your business. The people behind them are what make the iron / name shine after the initial installation.
I have a suspicion that their (Methods) east coast after sales support is far better than what we get in the west. My experience with them hasn't been what one would call positive, and asking around the most positive response I head about their after sales support was "its a hot mess" and it went downhill fast from there. I quit taking their calls a year or so ago, which sucks, because they do carry some good machines, but things will have to change before I would consider buying more.
 
I have a suspicion that their (Methods) east coast after sales support is far better than what we get in the west. My experience with them hasn't been what one would call positive, and asking around the most positive response I head about their after sales support was "its a hot mess" and it went downhill fast from there. I quit taking their calls a year or so ago, which sucks, because they do carry some good machines, but things will have to change before I would consider buying more.
I'd love to tell you they are but I am east coast. They might be better than west coast, but they still are not good.
 








 
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