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If you could have one 5 axis as the only machine in your shop

Neither of these things is true in this case.

A CNC mill control needs to be exported from Japan either as Full 5 or not, and both Japanese METI laws and the US/Japan trade agreement specify that a control cannot leave Japan as a 4 axis, then be upgraded to full 5 after export. As such, Brother has the standard D00 control on most machines, and offers the D00v for the full 5 axis mills - they are identical controls with the only difference being a firmware lock to keep a D00 from ever getting upgraded to a D00v.

D00 was designed from the ground up for full 5 axis - Brother had the older C00 control doing full 5 axis stuff for a few years, but their own assessment was that it didn't have the processing chops or encoder resolution. I know these were internal to Brother, but they never sold them, even in the Japanese market. The first "full 5" Brother is the M200 Xd1 5Ax.

My region has more U500s and M200 5Ax Speedios than anywhere in the country. These machines are performing *far* better than I ever pitched they would to users. Work that was running on *much* higher spec machines is moving on to these; surface finishes are comparable, accuracy is comparable - but cycle times are Speedio shorter and they cost 1/2 what anything else does.

Would I make a Speedio 5 axis my *only* machine though? I'm guessing for about 25% of the market, I would be able to say that is a good idea. It depends entirely on the goals and the parts you need to make - if everything fits in your hand and you are more volume oriented, or doing captive R&D work internal to a company? Absolutely! If you hung up your shingle as a job shop and need massive flexibility in both parts mix, materials, and a bigger envelope for larger parts? Probably not.

Where I am happy, is walking into any 5 axis shop with Hermles, Yasdas, Makinos, Grobs etc etc, and telling them instead of buying more $500k mills, they can buy a U500 5Ax for around $200k to free up their more expensive spindles, without having to change the process or give up much of anything.
Brother might be an exception, but overall i completely agree with MKD, i'd never buy a doosan with HH or siemens control, buying a Grob with HH is sketch af too IMO.
brother is different because they make their own control, not just implementing someone else's stuff into their machine, but you already know that :) just clarifying
 
So the D00 is their first control foray into the full 5 axis market, but you're saying it's not their first because they failed with an older control that was never released??
Do you actually listen to what you're saying? 🤣🤣🤣
 
So the D00 is their first control foray into the full 5 axis market, but you're saying it's not their first because they failed with an older control that was never released??
Do you actually listen to what you're saying? 🤣🤣🤣

Did you read what I wrote?

They took the older (13 years old at this point) controller and experimented with it to develop full 5 axis motion. They never intended to release it, just gain experience and outline the parameters that would drive the development of their next generation controller. You know - the kind of R&D successful companies do to make high-quality products?

That R&D paid off - we have a bunch of M200 5Ax machines doing simultaneous 5 axis cuts in production right now and every customer is planning on buying more. It works *far better* than any full 5 axis mill/turn machine with a list price under $200k has any right to. The only problem is that we literally can't keep them in stock.
 
5-axis as the only machine in the shop?

It would have to be a Mazak Integrex for me. Clamp a tooling plate between spindles and do 5-axis milling work as needed. Especially with a big-bore model, about any kind of part that fits can be turned and milled out of round bar stock, for long unattended cycles.

ToolCat
 
Did you read what I wrote?

They took the older (13 years old at this point) controller and experimented with it to develop full 5 axis motion. They never intended to release it, just gain experience and outline the parameters that would drive the development of their next generation controller. You know - the kind of R&D successful companies do to make high-quality products?

That R&D paid off - we have a bunch of M200 5Ax machines doing simultaneous 5 axis cuts in production right now and every customer is planning on buying more. It works *far better* than any full 5 axis mill/turn machine with a list price under $200k has any right to. The only problem is that we literally can't keep them in stock.
I was kinda just messing with you. 😝
Sounds like a compelling market placement. Will it fit under a suburban garage door?
 
5-axis as the only machine in the shop?

It would have to be a Mazak Integrex for me. Clamp a tooling plate between spindles and do 5-axis milling work as needed. Especially with a big-bore model, about any kind of part that fits can be turned and milled out of round bar stock, for long unattended cycles.

ToolCat
The Integrex I had experience with had such a puny milling spindle that an Integrex would be way down on my list.
 
The Integrex I had experience with had such a puny milling spindle that an Integrex would be way down on my list.
I don't how long ago that was, but today's Integrexes are far, far more machine than what they once were. Take a look at the I series. We have one in our sights as our next machine purchase.
 
I don't how long ago that was, but today's Integrexes are far, far more machine than what they once were. Take a look at the I series. We have one in our sights as our next machine purchase.
It was 12-14 years ago now. An e1060-V8. Powerful enough. Rigidity was the issue. Turning ability was good so not a basic machine structure issue. Just a noodly milling spindle.
 
If you could only have one, could be nice to be able to do normal milling machine work as well ... and a decent work envelope is also nice.

k14607b.jpg
 
There are definitely some jobs out there that those still really shine.

It does look like that control has been upgraded tho.
Not sure what came on those?
Would almost had to have been a A900?

My A900 mill was only 2.5 axis, so it kind'a seems odd that a 900 would be used here, but I'm guessing that this is more like a 3+2, rather than full 5x? (when new)


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
have you been to the TRD facility? i couldnt stop drooling over it...
Hey Empower, sorry for the late reply. I did make it to the TRD facility. Also had the chance to see a shop with 8 Grob machines. 6 G350's lined up, each with the two pallet system. and two G550 with the full pallet pool. Saw a shop with three hermle as well. C32 with automation, C52, and an older C something. The shop with the Grobs had pretty good things to say, but didn't had the palletized machines for 9 months and had only run two simple fixtures on them so far... they didn't explain the lack of productivity. I guess some shops just have enough money to take it slow. The shop with the Hermle's had long military type contracts printing money. TRD was amazing because the shop is funded under Toyota's marketing budget, but was still incredibly productive. The way they were tracking and setting up jobs was inspiring. Each setup had documentation that left nothing to be assumed, so naturally their results were predictable. They had good things to say about the MSP (crash protection) on the newer P500U's as well. Said its saved their bacon a couple times on prove-out. Only negative thing they had to say was regarding the initial setup of the 1450 (bigger) machines. Just some teething issues that GF handled with some time. I'm smack dab between LA and SF, so support will always have to travel to us, about 4 hrs from LA, but should be about the same whether we go with GF or Mikron. The budget has firmed up and things are moving along. So we will be procuring a machine shortly. Going to start out with a C250 or E500/700 without the pallet pool. budget has been confirmed at $500k, so I should have plenty of cash left over for tooling, fixtures, Hypermill, and supporting equipment. I'll be starting over from the ground up, so supporting equipment including inspection tool will be a significant cost. Thinking of building a basic CMM into the equation.

Your input has been helpful in weighing GF vs Hermle. I have plenty of information, but I'm still a bit torn with an edge toward the C250.
 
Hey Empower, sorry for the late reply. I did make it to the TRD facility. Also had the chance to see a shop with 8 Grob machines. 6 G350's lined up, each with the two pallet system. and two G550 with the full pallet pool. Saw a shop with three hermle as well. C32 with automation, C52, and an older C something. The shop with the Grobs had pretty good things to say, but didn't had the palletized machines for 9 months and had only run two simple fixtures on them so far... they didn't explain the lack of productivity. I guess some shops just have enough money to take it slow. The shop with the Hermle's had long military type contracts printing money. TRD was amazing because the shop is funded under Toyota's marketing budget, but was still incredibly productive. The way they were tracking and setting up jobs was inspiring. Each setup had documentation that left nothing to be assumed, so naturally their results were predictable. They had good things to say about the MSP (crash protection) on the newer P500U's as well. Said its saved their bacon a couple times on prove-out. Only negative thing they had to say was regarding the initial setup of the 1450 (bigger) machines. Just some teething issues that GF handled with some time. I'm smack dab between LA and SF, so support will always have to travel to us, about 4 hrs from LA, but should be about the same whether we go with GF or Mikron. The budget has firmed up and things are moving along. So we will be procuring a machine shortly. Going to start out with a C250 or E500/700 without the pallet pool. budget has been confirmed at $500k, so I should have plenty of cash left over for tooling, fixtures, Hypermill, and supporting equipment. I'll be starting over from the ground up, so supporting equipment including inspection tool will be a significant cost. Thinking of building a basic CMM into the equation.

Your input has been helpful in weighing GF vs Hermle. I have plenty of information, but I'm still a bit torn with an edge toward the C250.
why hypermill? i would recommend you check out NX, much better system. i've used both.
nothing wrong with C250, fantastic machines!
 








 
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