Insert drilling for my new Haas TL-1 lathe (not experienced in this)

[NC Rick]

Hello folks, I always appreciate all of your support and encouragement despite my limited experience. Questions: I have the TL1 which replaced my 15” Nordic manual machine. I have no turret and only a CXA Aloris tool post. I hope to build a secondary solid mount to the cross slide in future. My work is primarily ones and twos as well as product R&D. Most of my materials are 6061, 1045, 1144 and sometimes 4140 PH. I often in the “bigger” work is in aluminum which may start as 3.5” O.D. and need to bore out I.D.s with steps and grooves (I hate I.D. grooves ). My hope is to start an efficient starting hole to provide the boring bar to do its work. My reasoning is to have a drill with pre-set offset I would use this “often” for me. We don’t do this day after day. I *think* I could get away with a 1” insert drill with C size inserts. I am limited to 1800 rpm so getting the speeds at minimums the smaller drills might be off the charts at these low RPMs. I don’t know about the “power” with a belt driven spindle compared to my twist drills and gear headed 5HP manual. The TL1 states 10hp and the maximum torque at 355 rpm. I think I need to be in the low end in/rev should be 300-500 surface speed and maybe 3-5 thou. per rev. (I’m spit balling). Looking at calculators I will be okay at HP but the torque will be close (looking at the advertised curves) if I “down rate” the spindle power at 100%. I am confused by Haas rates the power curves at 200%. Expect to be drilling at about 30 seconds in cut. I’m not sure if a peck cycle is okay without killing the inserts. I will have coolant and could maybe plumb in through coolant at low pressure (guessing at 5-15 PSI).

My new lathe has not been started by the certified Haas dealer people yet. I’m buying some basic tooling now.
Thank you again for your patience and help. I’m just fine with criticism as there is a rich opportunity of being a dummy and new to CNC (ish).

 

[Donkey Hotey]

I don't know what year your TL-1 is (first or second version of the design) but, it sounds like exactly what I have, including the CXA tool post.

First: I think you may be worrying too much about HP and torque. I had some 3" aluminum parts I was cutting not too long ago. I believe I was taking 0.2" off the diameter at 0.025" per rev and that was enough to make it seem like it was actually working. I try to not run it that aggressively because of the tool post.

I find that when really getting aggressive, the CXA tool post pushes out of the way and blows all my offsets, long before I stall the spindle. Most often, I've had problems when pushing a big drill into something or taking super heavy chip loads.

What I keep as standard, inside hole making tools: a stubby 1/2" drill that I use as a general starter hole maker. Deeper if I need. Often just a spot drill that doesn't wiggle. Once I punch the 1/2" starter hole, I open it up with a boring bar. Most boring bars simply won't cut on center but, they will work fine once there is some center relief clearance.

Those two tools stay in numbered tool holders and they're always touched off and ready to go. I've been sort of eyeballing a bigger U-drill to dedicate to the same task but, haven't gotten around to it yet. What I've been doing seems to work.

 

[rklopp]

I find that when really getting aggressive, the CXA tool post pushes out of the way and blows all my offsets, long before I stall the spindle. Most often, I've had problems when pushing a big drill into something or taking super heavy chip loads.

This. Most often the toolpost twists due to the offset load. I run into this even with a BXA post on a manual lathe trying to push a decent-size normal twist drill hard. Some folks add a dowel to the toolpost base to interlock it with the compound (or cross slide in your case) to keep the toolpost from twisting.

 

[NC Rick]

I don't know what year your TL-1 is (first or second version of the design) but, it sounds like exactly what I have, including the CXA tool post.

First: I think you may be worrying too much about HP and torque. I had some 3" aluminum parts I was cutting not too long ago. I believe I was taking 0.2" off the diameter at 0.025" per rev and that was enough to make it seem like it was actually working. I try to not run it that aggressively because of the tool post.

I find that when really getting aggressive, the CXA tool post pushes out of the way and blows all my offsets, long before I stall the spindle. Most often, I've had problems when pushing a big drill into something or taking super heavy chip loads.

What I keep as standard, inside hole making tools: a stubby 1/2" drill that I use as a general starter hole maker. Deeper if I need. Often just a spot drill that doesn't wiggle. Once I punch the 1/2" starter hole, I open it up with a boring bar. Most boring bars simply won't cut on center but, they will work fine once there is some center relief clearance.

Those two tools stay in numbered tool holders and they're always touched off and ready to go. I've been sort of eyeballing a bigger U-drill to dedicate to the same task but, haven't gotten around to it yet. What I've been doing seems to work.

I have read quite a few of your posts and learned from them. My manual machine (now gone to a new owner) worked well with an MT4 1” twist drill (after started a 1/2” drill at hand) using the tailstock before boring. The smaller boring bars with 2-3” deep holes can get chattery for me. I like the bigger ones. I will follow your advice with the smaller twist drills and particularly because I often make smaller holes (often 9/16” with steps and grooves for glands). I like the idea of an efficient insertable drill. With the CXA size which is just a little bigger I still wonder how much thrust will the tool post stay in place. My Nordic with the BXA has had the same issues that @rklopp points out. A boring holder with the “u-drill” puts it closer to the center line. I would like to have a support bracket attached to the riser to deter rotation of the tool post. I’d like to have a fixed holder on the back side of the cross slide if my day to day clearances would work. Ideas and realities often clash for me. I do not want my tool post loose position because I want an efficient means to make a couple parts. Thanks guys! I appreciate your input. I could learn a lot more. Power curves, thrust and such are new subjects for me but seemingly kinda important. I prefer to not spend $500 bucks for a drill that wont work for me. The brains on this forum are likely to enlighten me.

 

[kineticmx]

Seems like a second fixed position on the cross slide would be a better solution than always worrying about knocking the tool post out of alignment.
Website says 8" of cross slide travel on the TL-1?
You could probably stick a fixed block on the back of the cross slide, I would pin it so it can be taken off and put back on somewhat repeatably. The U drills aren't terribly picky about alignment as long as you get the centerline right. Bonus points if you made two blocks, one that was 1" and another 1.25" , with quick connects on the back for thru tool coolant.
You can get these import drills super affordably. They have a good size range from about .625-1.125" with only those two shank sizes. I run them with great success. I probably wouldn't use them on a lights out cell, but for a tool room lathe I don't think you can beat them for the price.

U drill 1"x3x6-1/2", 1-1/4" dia. shank, indexable, Extra 4 WCMX05 inse | CME Tools

U drill with indexable carbide inserts WCMX050308 & Extra 4 inserts 1" flute diameter; 3" flute length; 1-1/4" shank diameter; 6-1/4" all over length; Extra 4 inserts Coolant thru. Coolant hole thread 1/4" NPT

cme-tools.com

 

[Nmbmxer]

I would dowel the toolpost in place. Often there is a dowel pin hole on the underside of the toolpost already.

 

[kenton]

You might be able to make up a holder to mount on to the chuck side face of the tool post so there is no rotational force on the tool post.

something like this but with a bore for the shank instead of the drill chuck.

Tool Post Drill Chuck 41-000

The Tool Post Drill Chuck is designed to decrease the time it takes to drill a hole on the lathe. Peck drilling can be performed much faster since the drill bit is held at the tool post instead of the tailstock. Hole depths can also be monitored on the carriage DRO during the drilling process.

www.edgetechnologyproducts.com

 

[Donkey Hotey]

You might be able to make up a holder to mount on to the chuck side face of the tool post so there is no rotational force on the tool post.

Yes, the forces would be better managed but, all of the boring and drilling holders for the standard toolposts are the way they are and we all have our money tied up in them.

As for doweling: I've thought about it but, can't resolve how to tram the tool post afterward and then meaningfully lock it down. The solution is probably a whole different riser block design where the tool post can be locked to the riser block and the riser block has enough room to handle the final tramming.

This video goes through what he did. There is some comfort in knowing that the tool block will rotate if I get too stupid. Not positive if I want to make the joint stronger or not.

 

[NC Rick]

Thanks guys. I can’t watch that YouTube, it bothers me. I would not do that. @kenton that is a cool idea. I don’t think I want a drill chuck. Anyway, I’m getting into the woods and loosing what I’m looking for.

What size drill would be good for my machine? The 1” insert drill I think would use about 3.5 hp and the torque is going to sit near my 100% torque. I figure the thrust would be up to near 400 lbs? I want surface speed which will work correctly and I don’t think I can run smaller optimally 3/4” or less. I think! That is why I am asking. I would like to make the particular operation we do “frequently”. I want a good hole size for a nice rigid boring bar close to 1” would make that happen at 3” deep.

 

[NC Rick]

Seems like a second fixed position on the cross slide would be a better solution than always worrying about knocking the tool post out of alignment.
Website says 8" of cross slide travel on the TL-1?
You could probably stick a fixed block on the back of the cross slide, I would pin it so it can be taken off and put back on somewhat repeatably. The U drills aren't terribly picky about alignment as long as you get the centerline right. Bonus points if you made two blocks, one that was 1" and another 1.25" , with quick connects on the back for thru tool coolant.
You can get these import drills super affordably. They have a good size range from about .625-1.125" with only those two shank sizes. I run them with great success. I probably wouldn't use them on a lights out cell, but for a tool room lathe I don't think you can beat them for the price.

U drill 1"x3x6-1/2", 1-1/4" dia. shank, indexable, Extra 4 WCMX05 inse | CME Tools

U drill with indexable carbide inserts WCMX050308 & Extra 4 inserts 1" flute diameter; 3" flute length; 1-1/4" shank diameter; 6-1/4" all over length; Extra 4 inserts Coolant thru. Coolant hole thread 1/4" NPT

cme-tools.com

Yep, 8” x travel. I have ideas but I don’t have that experience. Work piece will be limited in diameter for those setups.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

The google is stalking me. This just came up in my suggestions. I'm watching it now. Maybe there's good information in there for you?

 

[Mattkarhan]

So I have a 2016 TL-2 . I had similar questions regarding quickest way to a minimum hole size required for a 1” boring bar.
I bought a Haas tooling insert drill , 1” diameter and it uses two inserts one for center and one for periphery.
Used the speeds and feeds straight from the manufacturer. It popped a hole in I think a 4” 316 stainless steel round one inch deep wonderfully.
I went conservative the first go around and it didn’t really like it, second go I upped the feed and it squealed and bit in and cut awesome. I know nothing but manual turning could be that way at times too when the lathe wanted more feed and load to avoid chatter on a parting tool etc.
1300 RPM. F 0.0039”
The inserts in the kit are for steel and stainless but I have cheated and popped holes in aluminum plenty.
I also use this in a 1” boring bar holes and use thru coolant.
I do have the four position turret.
I think my cost on the drill and inserts was $232 with a discount code and the Haas tooling website is running one now for 20% off .

 

[NC Rick]

The google is stalking me. This just came up in my suggestions. I'm watching it now. Maybe there's good information in there for you?

Thank you!
I liked that fellow. He likes drilling! His parts are more heavy than my machine it seems!
I tend to overthink and worry but it is a cycle where do learn some stuff.
This morning, I ordered a 3/4” drill which advertised as 5x l/d. I was thinking (in circles) that my manual lathe speeds have been well below recommended surface speed on smaller aluminum parts (most of my work) anyway.

I would prefer a fixed drill holder and I will try that in future I suspect. I also know I’m going to use the CXA QC tool holders and since my manual machine would displace location under high loads such as “skiving” on hydraulic cylinders. I do run out of patience and tend to push harder than I should. The other times I notice if I ran into chatter with a boring bar or even a parting tool.

I was thinking I’d like to extend the “T”- nut holding the tool post to incorporate a couple lock screws ahead and behind and extend the slot to provide a “shelf” to provide some anti-rotation setup (maybe extend the corner too?)
I am very appreciative of all the support from you and others. I have many questions yet I just don’t know much about my new machine (brand new TL awaiting service commissioning) and capabilities. My capabilities are always in question .

 

[NC Rick]

So I have a 2016 TL-2 . I had similar questions regarding quickest way to a minimum hole size required for a 1” boring bar.
I bought a Haas tooling insert drill , 1” diameter and it uses two inserts one for center and one for periphery.
Used the speeds and feeds straight from the manufacturer. It popped a hole in I think a 4” 316 stainless steel round one inch deep wonderfully.
I went conservative the first go around and it didn’t really like it, second go I upped the feed and it squealed and bit in and cut awesome. I know nothing but manual turning could be that way at times too when the lathe wanted more feed and load to avoid chatter on a parting tool etc.
1300 RPM. F 0.0039”
The inserts in the kit are for steel and stainless but I have cheated and popped holes in aluminum plenty.
I also use this in a 1” boring bar holes and use thru coolant.
I do have the four position turret.
I think my cost on the drill and inserts was $232 with a discount code and the Haas tooling website is running one now for 20% off .

Wow, thank you! Yep, I ordered the same type of drill with C sized inserts but I chickened out on the power requirement (my looking at calculators) and went with 3/4” x 5 on their discount you mentioned. (I really like these Haas people so far). I’m not sure if your TL2 is a similar spindle power as my 2024 TL-1. I don’t really understand the HP and torque curves in a practical sense. Worst case, I get another drill which is larger based on this works. I do have a carbide bar which will fit in a diameter of just over 0.800” and see if I can push through the 0.750. I am dumb since I kinda push and listen/watch without knowing how much clearance I make on my manual machine at least until I get into the zone of a finish diameter.

Very kind of you to look up that data too. Awesome site.

 

[NC Rick]

Seems like a second fixed position on the cross slide would be a better solution than always worrying about knocking the tool post out of alignment.
Website says 8" of cross slide travel on the TL-1?
You could probably stick a fixed block on the back of the cross slide, I would pin it so it can be taken off and put back on somewhat repeatably. The U drills aren't terribly picky about alignment as long as you get the centerline right. Bonus points if you made two blocks, one that was 1" and another 1.25" , with quick connects on the back for thru tool coolant.
You can get these import drills super affordably. They have a good size range from about .625-1.125" with only those two shank sizes. I run them with great success. I probably wouldn't use them on a lights out cell, but for a tool room lathe I don't think you can beat them for the price.

U drill 1"x3x6-1/2", 1-1/4" dia. shank, indexable, Extra 4 WCMX05 inse | CME Tools

U drill with indexable carbide inserts WCMX050308 & Extra 4 inserts 1" flute diameter; 3" flute length; 1-1/4" shank diameter; 6-1/4" all over length; Extra 4 inserts Coolant thru. Coolant hole thread 1/4" NPT

cme-tools.com

Thanks for the link! After watching the video of the Australian fellow that @Donkey Hotey was so kind was to share I purchased a 1” x 3 L/D which was super reasonable. Now I’ll have two options and the different and matching WCM Inserts. It will be interesting. That is a big hole for a non geared TL lathe.