Intellectual Property

[Mosport]

Sorry for the long post. I have a question.

I have a customer who asked me to design some parts to machine for them. I have designed the parts from scratch(no drawings, just gave me a mount from another company and told me to make some adjustments and move some components and to add some features) and am now in the process or quoting said parts to be machined by us.
I gave him a rough price just for the hours worked to design. I figured I could cut him a better deal on the hours since he would be using us as the machine shop as well, but he has demanded the CAD files it seems like he wants the files to take to another shop to try to get a lower quote.

We are a small time shop but do fine with our other customers. We have one off designs for our other customers as well and they ask for custom designs but none have asked for the CAD files since we usually are their designer and machine shop these parts are proprietary to each customer.

I guess the question is do I have to give them the cad files?
We had a verbal agreement to design and machine the parts but now it seems like he’s just trying to pay and go elsewhere

 

[Clive603]

Short answer is he gets what he pays for.

You quoted for the design work so you made that money sitting in a warm office rather than running around in a cold shop. Sounds a decent deal to me. Offsetting costs of work you have done against gain from a job you might get rarely ends well.

Pretty routine for me to design something that doesn't actually get made once its all been looked at properly so I just charge the appropriate hourly rate. But customer gets the drawing print outs for evaluation and thats all. If he wants to hawk them round to another manual machine shop thats his worry.

Clive

 

[EmGo]

I guess the question is do I have to give them the cad files?

You could argue about it or you could give him a sketch on a napkin and tell him that's what you used

If you unfortunately told him the charge was for working up a cad design, then you're kinda stuck.

Altho no one said it has to be correct ... or, for that matter, in a format anyone else on the planet can use, hint hint.

We had a verbal agreement to design and machine the parts but now it seems like he’s just trying to pay and go elsewhere

Have had that happen, more than once. Unfortunately it is part of the game so if you blew it and told him you were charging for a cad design and he paid you for that, you're kinda toast.

Try not to talk yourself into a corner, it's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

The rare and unusual format trick would still work, however. And learn to play dumb. "No one else uses Computervision anymore ? wow, I had no idea ..."

 

[DDoug]

Looks like you should have separated the (2) jobs more.
1. The quote to engineer/draw in CAD.
2. The quote to machine.

And not allow one quote to effect the other.

 

[BoxcarPete]

You said you gave him a "rough price" for design, was this ever formally quoted as such?

If so, you might be toast, as the others have said.

If not, offer him a packaging model which is missing some critical detail, but would look just fine as a placeholder in his assembly. If he doesn't accept that, re-quote him for a manufacturing drawing at a rate that makes all the design work worthwhile and let him take it somewhere else.

Again, the likelihood of that working depends on how formally communicated your design rate was at the onset, and how aware your customer was that you had intended to offer that design rate considering production by you as well.

 

[EmGo]

Looks like you should have ...

Well Diggs, looks like we're on opposite sides of the line of scrimmage. If you got the balls, I'll put up twenty-five cents. I'd like to say I have faith in the phony-niners but ... it's gonna be a squeaky. Your guys are not half bad

 

[DDoug]

Well Diggs, looks like we're on opposite sides of the line of scrimmage. If you got the balls, I'll put up twenty-five cents. I'd like to say I have faith in the phony-niners but ... it's gonna be a squeaky. Your guys are not half bad

In engrish this time please ???

 

[EmGo]

In engrish this time please ???

Niners - Iggles, I'll put up $.25 on the outcome if you want to take the guys with the funny green uniforms.

Altho I have to admit the spangly gold pants are kind of gay (appropriate, maybe). But we got a mafia descendant on the line so youse guys maybe wanta take a step back eh ? gotta nice little business goin' there, I heah. Wouldn't want nuthin bad to happen to it ... fire, flood, tommy gun ...

 

[Garwood]

For about a decade I did everything 2d. Had never learned how to model. All the z heights were in my head or in Cam.

This unwittingly worked out a few times when I gave a DXF for a complex assembly when customer demanded the cad.

 

[Mosport]

Thanks for the reply’s guys
I’m probably gonna eat this one and get a base contract up for the next time to avoid any confusion with any more customers

 

[EmGo]

I’m probably gonna eat this one and get a base contract up for the next time to avoid any confusion with any more customers

The thing is, and this is kind of an ongoing problem, if they pay for the design they really do kind of own it. This is not a once-inna-while fluke occurence, it will happen to you again.

In fact, I think it's a good subject for others to talk about, cuz it's not that easy to deal with. You do want to get the whole job but you'd also like to get paid for the designing and programming part .. but if you split them up, the customer deserves what they paid for. We don't want to do that And if you don't split them up, good chance they won't go ahead with the project at all.

 

[david n]

For about a decade I did everything 2d. Had never learned how to model. All the z heights were in my head or in Cam.

This unwittingly worked out a few times when I gave a DXF for a complex assembly when customer demanded the cad.

I still don't model in 3d...............I have ton of stuff I have designed for customers and it's the same here.............just simple dxf or dwgs................most, if not any, haven't any dimensioning either....................When I design, the customer gets a part, not a print.

 

[Radar987]

I guess the question is do I have to give them the cad files?

You have to deliver something to get paid. That's how it works.

You can also not deliver anything and not get paid.

What are you going to deliver? You can email him the native files, or you can export your model to JPEG and send him some fuzzy printouts by certified mail. Both of those technically count as "cad files", get what I'm saying?

 

[DDoug]

Do you ever want any more work from this customer ?
Eat it, fix your quoting and legal stuff, and move on.

 

[Freedommachine]

I still don't model in 3d...............I have ton of stuff I have designed for customers and it's the same here.............just simple dxf or dwgs................most, if not any, haven't any dimensioning either....................When I design, the customer gets a part, not a print.

I still do that a lot too. Some of my parts do not have drawings, just a 2d mastercam file of lines and circles in order to make tool paths. I'll post a program then tweak it at the machine. I store important info in the programs like this:
N0010 ( G54 X0.Y0. In upper left corner);
OR
N0020 (mill shoulder 0.655 deep);

I've been trying to stop doing it though. If I ever want to sell my i.p. or farm out those jobs, it will be a real PITA.

I get what the OP is saying. I would be frustrated if I spent hours doing the design work for someone in anticipation of making the parts and they asked me for the drawings or models.

@Mosport Is it safe to assume the customer knows nothing about design work?

If so, I would remind him that initial cad modeling is only conceptual being the first phase of the design process. I would provide him with a screenshot of the part in cad and explain that the accuracy of a dimensional drawing depends upon test fitting a prototype or first article part.

If he's smart, he will continue letting the process carry out. If he is intent on getting all of the info now, ask him to sign a statement acknowledging that accuracy cannot be guaranteed.

I would also add a large, red letter note to the drawing that says; "conceptual drawing, dimensional accuracy not guaranteed."

If someone asked me to quote a drawing like that, I'd have to be pretty hungry to bid on it.

 

[DDoug]

Reminds me...Who was that nasty GM sourcing manager that played all the games and put large suppliers out of business ? Got them to do the developement work for free, promised them the follow on orders (where they could make up their losses) but never awarded them.
IIRC he went on to VW, or came from there.

 

[Conrad Hoffman]

IMO, you quoted design work and so you have to give him the design. In usable form. He's perfectly within his rights to get the part quoted elsewhere and it shouldn't upset you in the least.

 

[CarbideBob]

What I missing?
Customer bought design time from you. You deliver the full information and you make your rate on it.
Now if you want making the parts you have to compete with the world.
I would expect the customer to take this and quote five to ten sources.
Do the design work for free and then you do have a bitch when this happens.
Bob

 

[CarbideBob]

Reminds me...Who was that nasty GM sourcing manager that played all the games and put large suppliers out of business ? Got them to do the developement work for free, promised them the follow on orders (where they could make up their losses) but never awarded them.
IIRC he went on to VW, or came from there.

That would be Mr Lopez. Rather cut throat guy and hatted by so many.
All quotes for a project open and then he would invite all into a meeting to see what everyone else did or quoted fully exposing everything proposed and then the chance to re-quote.
Have been in this and interesting times indeed while he was in charge. Almost like a auction to get work.
Personally I got along well with him but sort of way brutal to suppliers and that included me.
Such is the auto world.
Bob

 

[BugRobotics]

Yea, hand over the files. It's the right thing to do.