What's new
What's new

Interesting (rare ?) Starrett rule, B & S "grinder micrometer"

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
Some years back, an old toolmaker in our area was sold me a few of his tools. This included a Starrett Number 0638 rule. This rule is One Meter in length, satin chrome finished, spring tempered. It is graduated on both sides: in 32's and 64ths of an inch, and in Millimeters one side, and 1/2 MM on the other side for one full meter. Interestingly, the inch graduations go to 39 1/4" on both sides, and have a blank space between the last of the 1/32 or 1/64th graduations and the end of the rule.

I use this rule on both my drafting table as well as in my shop. It's a handy rule for things like woodworking projects moreso than any machine shop work. The old toolmaker (long dead at this point) had told me he had one particular job where he had to order that rule from Starrett. He bitched about the cost (claiming it was a few hundred bucks as it was not a common rule). I am no collector of Starrett tools, only having what I use in my work, so have no idea if this particular rule is uncommon, special ordered, or a regular catalog item. Is this rule a rarer Starrett item ?

It is a nice thin spring tempered rule and quite handy when I am working off larger engineering drawings. Sometimes, when a drawing is reproduced (copied) a few times, or a dimension is missing, it is necessary to measure and scale the drawing. I have an 18" Mitutoyo dial caliper that works for most drawings, but on larger drawings, such as locomotive boilers, the 39"/meter rule gets used.

Another tool the oldtimer put into the lot is a very heavy frame Brown & Sharpe micrometer. I could find only one reference to it, and it was described as a "grinder micrometer".
Aside from the heavier frame, its function is the same as any other micrometer. Any ideas what this would have been used for ?
 

rivett608

Diamond
Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Location
Kansas City, Mo.
That is they Starrett made a lot of their rules with metric and inch, I have seen them both ways, with the metric the lenght and with the inch the lenght. Both had blank spaces on 1 or both ends.

Now about the Grinding mic, both Starrett and B & S made them. Here is a brief description I wrote about them a while back.

"Heavy Duty Micrometers

Brown & Sharpe Mfg. Co.,Providence, RI., 1911, 0-1” by .001”
The. L. S. Starrett Co., Athol, MA., 1920, 0-1” by .001”

One way to slow down wear of a tool is to make it and all its parts bigger; with more metal it will take longer to wear out, giving the tool longer life. We can guess that is what Charles H. Norton of the Norton Grinding Co. was thinking when he suggested to Brown & Sharpe to make a heavy micrometer. After all, anything used in the abrasive environment of a grinding shop is going to wear out quickly because that dust gets into everything. So B & S took their #8 and beefed it up with a heavy I-beam frame and larger diameter spindle and thimble, renaming it the #8H. Norton was so impressed he immediately ordered 25 of each in 1” and 2” sizes. Sales must have taken off because within a year or so they were offered as the #100 series “Designed Especially for the Grinding Room” in sizes up to 6” in English and metric. Starrett, not be outdone, offered their version of a heavy micrometer, their #238 some years later but only in the 1” size. Both continued in production for many years."
 

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
Rivett608:

Thank you for the explanation of what a "grinder micrometer" is. I remember back about 1989-90, I was ordering new tools to be kept at some of our remote hydroelectric plants. These plants are about 65 miles from the home plant. Starrett, at that time, offered a set of 'automotive' micrometers (or somesuch name for them). Really nice looking micrometers with "I-beam" frames, with the edges of the flanges of the I beam frames polished, dull black in the webs and inside flanges of the frames. I ordered a 0-6" set, which came in a nice wooden case. We also ordered larger micrometers for specific work at those plants, along with inside mikes, telescoping gauges, depth mikes, dial indicators, combination squares, rules, dividers, and lots more. All new from Starrett. I also ordered two swivel base Starrett 4 1/2" bench vises with swivel jaws. Spatterdash paint finish on them. Those were the days when Starrett still offered bench vises and a lot more tools in their lineup.

I did look up the pricing on the 39"/1 meter rule from Starrett. That old toolmaker was not kidding about the price. The current price is somewhere around $360.00 (!)
Makes me realize that our accumulations of tools would be a ridiculously high cost in today's dollars to replace.
 

Robert Lang

Stainless
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Location
Minneapolis, MN
I did look up the pricing on the 39"/1 meter rule from Starrett. That old toolmaker was not kidding about the price. The current price is somewhere around $360.00 (!)
Makes me realize that our accumulations of tools would be a ridiculously high cost in today's dollars to replace.

Check out the price on Starrett's 6 foot and 12 foot rules.
I have two of the 6' (different graduations) and one of the 12'.
I have spent a lot on machinist tools for work over the years.
It was costly then regardless of what it is in todays dollars.
I think most other occupations don't realize what machinist have to spend on tools for their occupation.

Rob
 
Last edited:

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
My nephew is an apprentice CNC machinist and also is getting experience on manual machine tools. I take a lot of pleasure in giving my nephew machinist tools as he comes along with his work. A couple of years ago, my nephew mentioned he was borrowing dial indicators reading on 0.0001" ('tenths') for setup work. I had two Brown & Sharpe (Swiss made) indicators reading in tenths. I had gotten them in a lot of other tools when several of us had bought the home shop of a deceased toolmaker. I had no need of the two indicators reading in tenths for what I do in my own shop. My nephew was over the moon to get them, and asked if I'd checked the prices on those indicators. Even used on Ebay, they go for over a hundred bucks apiece. I bought most of my own machinist tools years ago. Many of the tools in my chests were used, sold to me by machinists or toolmakers retiring or simply wanting to pass along their tools to younger people. A few weeks back, my wife and I drove to Massachusetts to pick up a set of Kennedy chests (bottom rolling chest, top machinist chest) for our nephew. Barely used, listed on Craigslist. The seller was a semi retired CNC shop foreman. When he heard the chest were for our nephew, he handed me a new 24" Fowler digital caliper, saying it was a gift to a young person coming into the trade. My wife had heard stories from me as to how this sort of thing was commonplace, where tools were passed along to younger people by people at or near retirement. She was a bit incredulous when she saw the fact the Kennedy chests were virtually new, top chest still in its shipping carton, with the seller knocking something off the price (less than half the cost of new) knowing it was going to a young person starting out.

Any trade or profession which works with tools and has to furnish their own tools has a cost that takes a bite out of the paycheck. People with office jobs or similar, other than clothing, have very little in the way of work-related expenses. Add things like safety shoes and prescription safety glasses (not every employer provides these to the workforce), along with furnishing your own tools and chest to put them in, and the cost of working in a machine shop takes a significant bite out of the paycheck. Work in an office or in a big box store and a person's out-of-pocket work related expenses are almost nil. Problem is salaries paid to machine shop employees is often not much better than working in a big box store. Sad commentary.
 

Limy Sami

Diamond
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Location
Norfolk, UK
My nephew is an apprentice CNC machinist and also is getting experience on manual machine tools. I take a lot of pleasure in giving my nephew machinist tools as he comes along with his work. A couple of years ago, my nephew mentioned he was borrowing dial indicators reading on 0.0001" ('tenths') for setup work. I had two Brown & Sharpe (Swiss made) indicators reading in tenths. I had gotten them in a lot of other tools when several of us had bought the home shop of a deceased toolmaker. I had no need of the two indicators reading in tenths for what I do in my own shop. My nephew was over the moon to get them, and asked if I'd checked the prices on those indicators. Even used on Ebay, they go for over a hundred bucks apiece. I bought most of my own machinist tools years ago. Many of the tools in my chests were used, sold to me by machinists or toolmakers retiring or simply wanting to pass along their tools to younger people. A few weeks back, my wife and I drove to Massachusetts to pick up a set of Kennedy chests (bottom rolling chest, top machinist chest) for our nephew. Barely used, listed on Craigslist. The seller was a semi retired CNC shop foreman. When he heard the chest were for our nephew, he handed me a new 24" Fowler digital caliper, saying it was a gift to a young person coming into the trade. My wife had heard stories from me as to how this sort of thing was commonplace, where tools were passed along to younger people by people at or near retirement. She was a bit incredulous when she saw the fact the Kennedy chests were virtually new, top chest still in its shipping carton, with the seller knocking something off the price (less than half the cost of new) knowing it was going to a young person starting out.

Any trade or profession which works with tools and has to furnish their own tools has a cost that takes a bite out of the paycheck. People with office jobs or similar, other than clothing, have very little in the way of work-related expenses. Add things like safety shoes and prescription safety glasses (not every employer provides these to the workforce), along with furnishing your own tools and chest to put them in, and the cost of working in a machine shop takes a significant bite out of the paycheck. Work in an office or in a big box store and a person's out-of-pocket work related expenses are almost nil. Problem is salaries paid to machine shop employees is often not much better than working in a big box store. Sad commentary.
Joe, I had the exact opposite experience, retired I'm off loading tools I'm never going to use again (some I can no longer lift)

From my agriculural and earthmoving days I had a fair collection of wrenches and 3/4 dr sockets 15/16 (24 mm) up to over 3''
No sets, but all good standard British and German brands, some ex Brit War Department (+ a couple of very old Proto wrenches) all used and some bearing battle scars but all perfectly serviceable the same going for the 3/4 dri ratchets and extensions etc etc. Al in a couple of ex WW2 steel ammo boxes.

Knowing the cost of good gear I put the word out for any young agri mechanics that it was going for peanuts compared to new of similar quality.

Not one response, so I called a couple of ag dealer service managers I know and was told I was wasting my time, .......... they agreed there was absolutely nothing wrong with it, and would use such gear themselves.

But to the youngsters it was the wrong brand, as in if it's not Snap On or Mac they're not interested.

I had an almity WTF moment and told one service manager he was taking the ***** and laughing as he told me he was deadly serious, ;- they would sooner be thousands in debt, than be seen with the wrong brand of tool. (I eventually found a home for them with a classic tractor guy, who paid a fair price)

Please don't tell me we've raised a generation of label queen mechanics and technicians, ................ or have I got it wrong?


P.S. the ammo boxes were easy to sell - for ''good money''
 

M.B. Naegle

Diamond
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
Conroe, TX USA
I've seen it both ways in my peers, however many that are buying their own tools are more concerned how new their tools are then if they are the right brand. Lots of guys would rather by a tools box full of stuff from HF than invest in one new high end tool.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I started with the way my dad assembled his tool boxes: any way he could. He'd buy old tools from friends, resale shops, new import stuff, new name-brand. It just depended what was available and how much he could invest in it. He was always one to bring in tools anytime they were available and hang on to spares. That was good as our shop expanded from just him to multiple employee's. We seemed to always get the widows tool boxes and boxes of rubbish from "friends" cleaning out the garage, and often there would be some gems mixed in the rough. As time has gone on, we've used up the life in the cheapo tools and bought new and used quality stuff as needed.

Now, I tend to prefer old name brand tools over anything new, as they tend to be more affordable and they're only "new" once and "used" forever after. Some of it is misguided name-brand pride and that longing for when we made good stuff here in the states, but honestly most of it is just knowing that a good used tool will last simply because it already has, while seeing the new thing as a gamble because so much of the name brand stuff is just the cheap tool with a more expensive name on it. There's always those jobs that you only need the tool to last for so long, but I'm to frugal to throw stuff out until it's used up, so I'd rather invest in a tool that will outlive me than in one that I'm always wondering if today is the day it'll break. Often you can get buy with the resources at hand just long enough that the work you do today pays for a better way of doing it tomorrow.
 

rivett608

Diamond
Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Location
Kansas City, Mo.
A few years back I had a lovely evening, a couple of neighborhood brothers that had all work for me in hign school, doing stuff from sweeping the floors to running a lathe, were pulling an engine out of a car for the first time. They came over to my shop to borrow a tool and told me what they were doing. I took a lawn chair and a bottle of wine up to their driveway to watch. It was so enjoyable, the 3 kids were all engineering students in collage and were smart, but they were delving into uncharted territory for them. They got the engine out and went to take off the the balancer on the front of the crank which as we all know is on pretty tight. They put their HF breaker bar on it and it did as it is named, it broke, well really it just bent. They were shocked, how could such a thing happen? I told the to run down the hill to my shop and get one out of such and such a drawer and try that. They were so worried it would break. It was an old S-K one I bought new in the 70s and said I think it will be just fine. They got the balancer off but they had to run tdown the hill a few more times to get my Snap-On puller and other tools, of course meanwhile I sat drinking the whole bottle of wine. It is a steep hill, I don't do hills so much. Anyway that night those boys learned and understood the concept of the quality of tools. It has nothing to do with how polished, new and shinny they are but how strong they are.
 

Joe Michaels

Diamond
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Location
Shandaken, NY, USA
Limy Sam:

I agree with your assessment of younger generation mechanics. Many are more "brand conscious" and want the "status" of having a Snapon rollaway chest full of Snapon tools. At the powerplant, it was a kind of "Garden of Eden in that regard. The Power Authority (a state owned/autonomous public authority) supplied the in-house crafts with tools and clothing. The plant had a kind of open account with a Snapon industrial sales representative. We bought heavier tools like slugging wrenches from Snapon. The mechanics browsed the Snapon catalogs, and if they thought they might need some more tools from it, they put in a request with their supervisor and the tools were bought. Soon, ever mechanic had a Snapon rollaway chest, middle chest and top chest filled to capacity. They bolted on side cabinets and filled them. They made racks on the outsides of the chests and hung heavier tools, and some added plate steel tops with swivel base vises. It was a kind of 'keep up with the next guy" thing. If a supervisor were to substitute Craftsman tools, the mechanic would often pitch a hissy fit, acting like a spoiled child. Management indulged them. Starrett or Mitutoyo tools were another hot item, and every mechanic had a few measuring instruments in their chests as well as a Starrett combination square set with 12" and 18" blades. It used to hurt me to see those square getting used for welded fabrication work, getting hit with weld spatter and grinding dust.

Welding shields were a whole other matter. Every mechanic was supposed to pick up a certification for stick (SMAW) welding of plate steel, all positions. Nearly every mechanic had this certification. As such, every mechanic had a welding shield, gloves, welding jacket, and a 'stinger' (lead with electrode holder). When I first started at the powerplant (1989), the mechanics had plain fiberglass welding shields with ordinary filter lenses. When auto darkening shields came along, they soon replaced the older shields. Then, welding shields with wider format lenses and 'graphics' (flames, etc) on the body of the shield came along. We had many mechanics claiming they could not weld properly without one of these newer shields. Soon, there was another pissing contest as to who'd get the wildest looking welding shield. We had state of the art welding equipment, state of the art tools, and we'd have prima donna mechanics who would argue that they could not weld properly without a newer, wildly decorated shield. When I became a Certified Welding Inspector, I was given a nearly new "Speedglass" auto darkening shield one mechanic gave up, trading for some different shield. I used it for years and took it into retirement as mechanics tended to regard using someone else's welding shield as wearing someone else's used underwear. I remember how, in highway department barns and old shops, a shield or two hung on nails in the wall, and that was it. If a person wanted to weld, they grabbed a shield off the wall and used it. No fancy graphics, no auto darkening. When I became a CWI, I used to check the welder qualifications and keep the welders current in their qualifications, as well as testing welders in various procedures and processes. No fancy graphics on my shield. If a welder complained about their shield, or that the 'heat' needed to be tweaked 2 amps one way or the other, I'd often tell them to step aside and watch over my shoulder. I'd start running weld on another set of plates with whatever heat the welding power supply was set at. I'd tell them of my 'coming up' in the days when all we had was motor-generator welders, often with no 'remote box' to tweak the heat, and of using those same machines to run "Scratch start TIG" for pipe welding in the nuclear plants.

I go with quality tools, regardless of who made them. Like Rivett, I get a great deal of pleasure in seeing young people develop an interest in working with tools, and teaching them. One of our son's college chums 'adopted' me as his uncle. He is a very well mannered young man and would call me "Mr. Michaels". I finally told him to call me Uncle Joe, since he looks upon our son as another brother. This young fellow (architecture degree, never used, now a licensed physical therapist) loved to ride and work on his own motorcycles. I got him an old Kennedy hand box and filled it with used and NOS US made tools. Mostly Craftsman, some J.H. Williams, some Klein, some Mayhew, and plenty more. He is over the moon about his toolbox, and says he immediately felt the difference in the tools from the imported stuff he was buying in big box stores and the like. This young fellow wanted a good 'used looking' toolbox, and that is just what he got. His girlfriend says he shows off that toolbox to very nearly anyone who comes to his home. My own son (an attorney) has a similar toolbox, an old hip-roof Craftsman toolbox with a handle I made out of steel and micarta, same sort of contents with a few tools I forged myself. My son uses his toolbox for working on his bicycle (he rides 50-60 miles at a rip on weekends) or for work around his apartment like assembling furniture. My other nephew (my brother in law's son) is working in a machine shop near here, and is kinf of acting foreman. That shop tired hiring a degreed engineer to run the shop floor and he failed miserably. Our nephew came up from shipping and receiving and has been in a kind of loop course/apprenticeship on the shop floor. He's spent time on manual machine tools, working to tenths, and some time on CNC. In his 3d year, he took to the work and the paper trail of documentation on the jobs as well as the scheduling end of it, so he moved up fast. He has a basic set of machinist tools I outfitted him with, some used, some Starrett, some Brown & Sharpe, some Mitutoyo, some made in Germany or Japan or Poland. I started him with a well used small Kennedy metal chest. My wife and I surprised him with a Kennedy rollaway and top chest bought used. Our nephew is like another son to us, and seeing him come along and come up in the shop has been quite special for us. He could care less about the name on a tool so long as it works well, is in calibration (if a measuring instrument), and is ready for use when he needs it. In that shop, the machinists and toolmakers 'on the floor' are required to have their own chests and tools. My nephew was welcomed and told to access one of the boss's chest whenever he needed tools. He felt odd about going into another person's chest, but I told him this was a sign of trust and the fact the boss held him in high regard. I told him that when I was a teenager working amongst German immigrant machinists, being allowed to borrow tools from one of their chests was something of an honor. I also told him a man's tool chest was his personal space, and if you entered it without permission, you'd 'get your hands broken off just below your shoulders'. Now, my nephew has his own chests and will set them up as he likes. I am sure he will have a photo or two of his parents, his dog, and my wife and I on the lid of the top till in keeping with traditions.

Giving tools and bringing young people along is something I find to be of life's greater rewards at this point of my own life. I remember early in my nephew's time at that shop, he had to hand tap a number of holes in stainless steel plate to do a setup on their CNC waterjet table. I asked him how he did the setup. He told me he 'dialed it in' using a dial indicator and mag base I had given him. I asked how many taps he broke in the stainless plate. His answer was 'none'. He then told me how he'd watched how I started taps in my own shop, and how I worked the tap wrench to break the chip as the tap went deeper into the work. I had never said a word to my nephew about the how and why of it, but he remembered and said he could feel the tap loading up and knew to coax it back to break the chip. When a young person learns by watching us and then doing for themselves and figuring the 'how and why' of the work, it is even more special.
 

M.B. Naegle

Diamond
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Location
Conroe, TX USA
I noted before how we've ended up with a couple of widows tool boxes. We also bought the tools of a couple past machinists before they passed and those tools merged into our shop supply. While personally thankful for these additions, I also think it a little disappointing that they couldn't have gone to a rookie or another individual that could have continued refining their use and contents.

My machinist chest consists of an old Gerstener sitting on an ancient silver Craftsman rollaway and it's tools are all color coded emerald green with the name or initials of Irwin Spalding who was an old neighbor who taught my dad machining when he was making the transition from leather-worker to leather machine mechanic. Dad bought his tools and machines and that was essentially the start of our machine shop. He used that chest quite a bit and I adopted it about 5 years ago and have kept the emerald green color coding and engraving going as I've added tools to the mix. I'm actually really close to taking the casters out from under the Craftsman and dropping it on an angle iron chassis so I can add a side set of drawers to it. I've been also building up the other rolling machinist sets as time goes on so each of our guys has a good "house" set of tools, but long term I have two sons and two nephews who will each have a good set of tools, even if they don't stick with the family business. Each set of tools has a history that isn't always continuous, but IMO instils more pride and respect than a new set of tools.

One of my Youtube regulars is Sampson Boat Companies ongoing restoration of the Tally Ho sail boat. Partway through the episodes Leo Sampson noted that 99% of the boat was being necessarily replaced and some had voiced concern that it wouldn't be the same boat anymore. He noted that wooden boats were built to have any one of the pieces replaced over their life time, and in time non of it would be "original," so the current restoration was no different. I think our tools are much the same. You take care of them, but in time it will see replacements and additions, but keeping that process going is what makes these tools more current and productive and a new set. I remember adding a modern deburr tool to my set and it honestly looked perfectly at home beside the old ones, and they all get used.
 








 
Top