Iron Tour 2015 - Lots of pics

[TNB]

the...
the...FPS 500M ! what did you expect ?!

 

[TNB]

A machine comparable to the is forerunner FP3, but 100% new and 100% compatable with Deckel accessories.

The FPS basic machines includs the 300M, that is the equivalent of the FP1 3 axis Aktiv, the 500M wich sorta replaces the FP3 Aktiv, the FPS 500M wich is the same machine with hydraulic tool clamping, and the FPS 500M-NC wich features a TNC 128 control and three DC motors...

Make your choice !


Ross, you probably noticed the newer machines lost their horizontal quill, buuuuuut it is available as an option so this is not even a good reason to stick with your FP4 !
On the manual machines, the DRO is a brand new unit, built to to replace the Heidenhain TNC113 with exactly the same features.
It is 100% compatible with older Deckel machines.
As for me, my curiosity was satisfied when I was told that the cost for a 300M was 50.000 euros wich is definitely out of reach, but clearly not so expensive for someone in need of a small manual quality milling machine. Well, that's my opinion at least.

 

[Peter from Holland]

Alan

Singer does about 50 Deckels a year he told me
He is very occupied While we were having a coffee his phone was ringing constantly
Luckely he ignored some Otherwise a conversation would not have been possible
You saw his grey hear No successors He likes what he is doing and goes on as long as he can and likes it
So how would he be a competator for FPS

Peter from Holland

 

[TNB]

During our visit, there were a few FPS 500M-NC running, probably check cycles.

Nice but why FPS decided to fit the 500M-NC with a TNC 124 control is quite a mistery to me.
Since the machine has three separate feed motors it would have been able to perform contour operations, even simple ones, wich doesn't seem to be the case with the 124.

But then, there's the FPS 500NC... Another story.

 

[TNB]

One can clearly see the feed motors arrangment.

 

[Peter from Holland]

Tien

Do we wait till page 4 for the "Wildbrat" ???
So if we don`t get that far PM will never know?????



Peter from Holland

 

[TNB]

Slow Peter, slow.... We have yet a bunch of pics and a few stories to tell before launching the atomic bomb !
I don't know why, but I don't get the feeling of people beeing annoyed....

Soooo, if the FPS500M-NC and the 500NC aren't enough for you, picky guys, they have even more for you, but that's another story...





I seem to recall the NC machines are handled at yet another plant, so that may be the reason why there are so few of them on the pics.
We had to keep a few excuses to justify our next visit !

 

[wrench]

"We had to keep a few excuses to justify our next visit".... Road trip! I'm in!

So, I'm curious.... On the manual machine controls German is used. On the CNC they have "Made in Germany." This makes me kind of wonder if they are targeting different markets? I know English is often used as a common business language (and God I wish the schematics for the Deckel were in English!) but I wonder if there is a reason why they have split their position on the two types of machines (?).

Peter: I mentioned that Singer and FPS might be competitors because they do have some overlapping business interests. Both are selling high quality rebuilds for customers so it seems reasonable to assume that those customers may look at competitive bids. And given that the cost of a rebuild and the cost of a new machine appear to be fairly close to one another, it also seems reasonable to assume that there is a competitive position there too. All of that said, that doesn't mean they would be mortal enemies of one another. If the sea has lots of fish and they are both busy, then there isn't a problem. And, even competitors will often work cooperatively with one another. I know that in our family business we worked with our competitors, for instance. And, let's face it, these are all fairly small/medium sized entities that are run by "real" people. The owners may have very cordial relationships with one another. It is far different from the large corporate environment where companies are trying to put the other out of business all the time.... thank God the entire world doesn't work like that (the latter)

Alan

 

[rklopp]

I was looking for Acieras amongst the Swiss pictures, and did not see any. Were there some to see? I think I saw some Fehlmann's in the background of the Schaublin lathe photos. Surely with Schaublins coming out of the woodwork at that one place, someone would have some Acieras kicking around.

 

[Admin5]

I was looking for Acieras amongst the Swiss pictures, and did not see any. Were there some to see? I think I saw some Fehlmann's in the background of the Schaublin lathe photos. Surely with Schaublins coming out of the woodwork at that one place, someone would have some Acieras kicking around.

There is still hope that Luthy of Switzerland was one of the "among others" that T mentioned in this opening remarks ! Dare I even dream that they visited the Fehlmann factory as well ?

Milacron

 

[Peter from Holland]

Wrench

We did mention to each we visited the other but i did not notice any negatives between Singer and FPS
I am not gonna ask how one feels about the other I deal with both so for me it ends there

Rklopp
Now you mention it No Acieras anywhere At least no rows of them
Perhaps I should ask mr Draca from Wallima about this .
I have a Aciera F5 right now and was expecting it to sell to Switserland to pay for the costs of the trip
The Fehlmanns have always been very populare in europe not just in Switserland

Milacron
You vote for Luthy ?? What is the connection between "Wildbrat" and Luthy you imagen ??

peter from holland

 

[Peter from Holland]

Here you have the man in his favorit pose

He also must be here somewhere??????

At breakfast With croissants How can a Frenchmen do without

peter from holland

 

[wrench]

Umm, Peter, I don't blame you one bit! It isn't something I'd pry over either; that would be plain foolish!

That photo of all the machines entitled "Where's Frenchie" () evokes a strange emotion. On the one hand, I am in sheer awe over the quantity of amazing tools (although I shouldn't be because clearly these were all made in fairly decent numbers). On the other hand, there is no doubt that I gravitate to the RAL Green. I don't know why, but that white and grey look just doesn't do it for me.... Maybe it is because I look at the Deckels/Schaublins/etc as being "old" and they should have colors to match. So #1 is machine grey, #2 is green, and then the others...

Tien and Peter... Just for the record, I have a killer espresso machine from Italy and there are tons of French patisseries here (Silicon Valley has an *extremely* diverse population). Soooo, if you are ever in the San Francisco Bay Area, I definitely owe you a cup or two for this extremely interesting thread!

Now I have to go make my morning latte....

Alan

 

[Markusfu]

Hi Peter and Tien- thanks for posting all the great pics. Must have been a great trip. Its good to see your faces with the names after all these years..... Keep em coming

thanks again

Markus

 

[TNB]

There is still hope that Luthy of Switzerland was one of the "among others" that T mentioned in this opening remarks ! Dare I even dream that they visited the Fehlmann factory as well ?

Milacron

LUTHY was not in our schedule this year, but I visited them back in 2012, so you'll have a few pictures anyway. Of course they don't fit really well in the "2015" aspect of thsi thread, but as long as no one complains...










Rows of 102's and Aciera F1, Sixis 101 everywhere. Machines that we almost didn't see during our 2015 tour with Peterve.



As far as I can recall, Luthy is the sole dealer putting price tags on the machines. Of course, there's the usual joke "if you need to ask for the price then it's too expensive for you", but that's a joke. From the customer -even the potential one- standpoint it IS nice to have the price without having to bother anyone.





















Try to find a Schaublin 13 in Germany... Good luck ! We didn't see any.



Technica grinders. Pretty specific machines too.







These pics are part of the answer Rklopp's comment about the lack of Acieras on our 2015 pictures, although he may have been more interested in the bigger machines as the F4/F5.

I was quite surprised too to notice how segmented the machine tool market seems to be. I mean one can see almost no swiss machines in Germany and then in Switzerland, the kind of machines one can see in Jura and in the other parts of the country seems to be very different.

Of course, this is a comment of my own, based on a very limited experience but it was seconded by our visit at Wallima and the conversation we had with Mr DRACA Sr.
As I asked him why Wallima had almost no smaller machines like the ones I had seen everywhere at Luthy and Scemama, he answered me that these machines were tightly related witht he clockmaking industry wich is very specific to the Jura area. That makes sense. You'll see by yourself with the pictures at Wallima.
It seems that Aciera never made it in a big way with bigger machines. We've seen a few of them, but only a few here and there.

 

[Botje]

Thanks for posting these pictures, very nice to see so many machines, used, rebuilt, new or repainted

Impressed to see so many new and rebuilt machines, I had no idea there is such a big market for them!

 

[Peter from Holland]

Thanks for posting these pictures, very nice to see so many machines, used, rebuilt, new or repainted

Impressed to see so many new and rebuilt machines, I had no idea there is such a big market for them!

I also keep being amazed at the amount of conventional machines available and prices they get in Switserland
In germany it is only one brand that gets that attention and thats Deckel
Do the Swiss still produce on those conventional machines ??
Are CNC machines that rare in production in Switserland For the Swiss I don`t hope so
Anybody has a idea why this is

Peter from Holland

 

[Admin5]

Alan

Just like all posts if you like Tien would like that

Exactly, don't be so lazy wrench....and this goes for you other slackers too...one finger, one press is all it takes !

Milacron

 

[TNB]

While we're in the nearby, why not paying a visit to Muller ?

That was a bit later, in 2014, and the opportunity to meet member JBC. A pleasure ! John, too bad you couldn't join us this time.

Visiting dealers and shops is nice, but the travelling part of those trips is also very important to me. I hope you don't mind !











The following pics at Muller were taken during a 15 minutes ultra-fast visit, before meeting friends so it is just a quick overwiew of what one can see in the basement of one of the three buildings... Awesome.

As one can see, lots of swiss machines, small milling machines and lathes. A few Deckels, but really very rare in the warehouse I did visit.























And the last one, for Rklopp... Rows of small Acieras, whereas we didn't see any in Germany.



Don't worry Peter, we'll be back on track as soon as we reach page 5 !

 

[Kees]

This is my contibution to get to page 5...
It is real fun to walk around in such shops and storage places. Here nearby is a machinedealer which is on of the largest in Europe I believe. But I almost never visit this place but when I do it's fun just to walk around.

Tien, thanks for posting the pictures but the camera makes some strange colors.Sometimes it looks like a vintage shade that fits the vintage machines.So it's OK for me.