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Is a Brother the right choice?

1% I say total BS! Nobody can guarantee that. Your utility wont even if you have great 3phase. Where I used to work we had power right off the main lines and had tap changers on the main transformers to keep the voltage close. Total Crap!

As far as reducing the voltage you are just down the road from HGR. They have transformers by the truckload. Go grab one. No biggie.
 
you might want to look into the power thing more,,, I might be wrong but its my understanding that Brothers wants 208V and from what my local power guys tell me the US is set up for 240V ... your going to get the power down to 208V on all three legs and under changing loads ... I can tell you first hand that its not easy to get clean power under changing loads with a RPC ... The guy from Yamazon sounds like he is trying to cover there butt and you might be left hanging ...

you might want to look at your power changing over the day? I have 244 at 5 am and 238 at 7 am ... same thing goes on every evening with everyone cooking and taking showers between me and the sub station 4 miles away.

Yes, the majority of residential single phase is 240. We range, highest I have had, as I mentioned earlier was 250. I haven't seen it below 240 before. I did order two buck transformers to bring me down withing a closer range. The manual states, 200/210/220/230 plus minus 10%. The buck transformers should bring me down to 233 or so from 247. Not perfect, but it will get me up and running...

The panel says 230V max.

If I'm in your shoes, I will invest in a PT330. Sometimes they have refurbished units (like mine) and you can save a few. Bucking transformers are cheap. It's just a small portion of your machine investment, and you can be safe. :)

....until I have some cash flow and can purchase a phase perfect or similar. Problem is I currently have a 10hp that is about maxed out, and I have another 10hp ready to install and piggy back. Both are American Rotary CNC balanced. If understood him correctly, the high voltage was a concern, but the cleanliness was more important.

To get a 20hp phase perfect to run everything....

Course, the flip side, I might not be running much of anything else... Other than squaring stock in my B&S and the occasional large Z or close tolerance boring job on the Moore, I doubt I will be using much other than my Monarch... which is a power hog.

Honestly, at the time, it was just one of those things you don't want to hear the day after signing.

I know the guy was CYA, but he was ALSO looking out for me. It isn't an old tank like all of my machinery, it is a finely tuned, tweaked to the edge, precision piece of equipment.

I WILL call next week and get pricing, so as soon as the machine is up and running, and I get some cash back in the bank for a buffer, I will look at getting a PP.

Already started a list of products I have "wanted" to for years. Nearly got the model of one part a customer has been bugging me for almost 3 months.

Hoping to be making chips by October 9th. Gotta have a goal right?
 
Sorry I missed the other posts!

Thanks for the reminder, ultimately an isolation transformer may be a good bet as well.

HGR is usually my go to for transformers. I have 1 or 4 in the shop from them. All were new? or appeared new? I went ahead and ordered them just to get them coming. The buck transformers were surprisingly cheap (~$350 for 2) and US made (supposedly)

Hey, I just want to say, I need all the help I can get and I am SUPER appreciative of the guys here on PM and the guys from Yamazen. Their tooling rep text me tonight at 9:30 to make sure that I had gotten all the tooling catalogs I wanted so I can start picking out items to get pricing on monday, so I can get everything I think I need and won't, ordered and here before the mill.

Need to get a basic order in at Mari as well.

Who here has 4th's on their Brothers? What other brands can you recommend besides the Nikken? I would like a 4th, primarily for positioning, but don't really want to spend $20k. Especially when the exact same model for a Fanuc is $12k? I heard Brother had an indexer at IMTS, but the sales rep couldn't give me any more info. I would love to be the guinea pig. wink wink
 
The Brother power supply should be between 200 and 230v. You should be fine at 233. My favorite rotary for the brother are the Yukiwa. Nikken, Koma, Sankyo and brother are all excellent too. All Japanese quality. Your Yamazen tooling rep can get you a quote on any of those. $20k sounds really high for a smaller (170-180mm) 4th. Larger ones can get up there.
 
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Who here has 4th's on their Brothers? What other brands can you recommend besides the Nikken? I would like a 4th, primarily for positioning, but don't really want to spend $20k. Especially when the exact same model for a Fanuc is $12k? I heard Brother had an indexer at IMTS, but the sales rep couldn't give me any more info. I would love to be the guinea pig. wink wink

I have Sankyo and Yukiwa on Brother machines. The Sankyo are backlash-free roller drive units, the Yukiwa are not. The Sankyo are faster. They are also a bit more expensive. These are both in high volume production (xxxx's pcs/day). The first pair of Sankyo 4ths went 9 years before a motor went out - still no backlash. The Yukiwa's run the same xxxx's pcs/day but due to product mix that machine runs very intermittently. Although it as built in 2010, it probably has only ran maybe 4 full years of production since then. However, still no issues with the Yukiwa units.
 
I have Sankyo and Yukiwa on Brother machines. The Sankyo are backlash-free roller drive units, the Yukiwa are not. The Sankyo are faster. They are also a bit more expensive. These are both in high volume production (xxxx's pcs/day). The first pair of Sankyo 4ths went 9 years before a motor went out - still no backlash. The Yukiwa's run the same xxxx's pcs/day but due to product mix that machine runs very intermittently. Although it as built in 2010, it probably has only ran maybe 4 full years of production since then. However, still no issues with the Yukiwa units.

The new Brother T-200 Rotary table is also a roller drive table. It is the same technology they have used in the tool changer and the M140 tilting axis.
 
The Brother power supply should be between 200 and 230v. You should be fine at 233. My favorite rotary for the brother are the Yukiwa. Nikken, Koma, Sankyo and brother are all excellent too. All Japanese quality. Your Yamazen tooling rep can get you a quote on any of those. $20k sounds really high for a smaller (170-180mm) 4th. Larger ones can get up there.

Spending this much on a new machine, I would spend the money on a buck booster. Bring the power into the machines happy place.
 
I have Sankyo and Yukiwa on Brother machines. The Sankyo are backlash-free roller drive units, the Yukiwa are not. The Sankyo are faster. They are also a bit more expensive. These are both in high volume production (xxxx's pcs/day). The first pair of Sankyo 4ths went 9 years before a motor went out - still no backlash. The Yukiwa's run the same xxxx's pcs/day but due to product mix that machine runs very intermittently. Although it as built in 2010, it probably has only ran maybe 4 full years of production since then. However, still no issues with the Yukiwa units.

Have you priced them recently? When I purchased a few months ago, Sankyo was the least expensive by a good bit (about $1500) of all the options. The Brother rotary was in the wild, but not available for sale at the time.

I was worried about table rigidity (a known problem on the Fanuc DDR) since I want to run a Lang tombstone. The Sankyo has been crazy rigid. 6" cube hung off a 96mm Lang plate, and all my weight on it only produces about 0.0002" of deflection. More importantly, the fact that it requires no lock/unlock delay makes it crazy fast - indexes add almost nothing to the cycle.

Instagram post by @lumalabsllc • Aug 3, 218 at 6:22pm UTC
 
"Spending this much on a new machine, I would spend the money on a buck booster. Bring the power into the machines happy place."

How about importing a machine that can use 240V ??? Even my old Fadals and Haas from the 1990`s have built in transformers good for 190V to 260V
 
Better yet import one that can use 240v SINGLE PHASE... might open up some new business there.
 
How about importing a machine that can use 240V ??? Even my old Fadals and Haas from the 1990`s have built in transformers good for 190V to 260V
At least Brother never made a control so bad one had to scream and yell at them to take it back. :) Why don't you start a thread about how awesome your Fadal and Haas machines are?

OP - do what you have to do to protect your machine. You're going to love it.

I've seen really weird stuff come off the supply lines. In 2011 I had a couple of machines get the control fried, due to a surge coming into the building. At that time I didn't have insurance that covered that sort of thing.
 
Better yet import one that can use 240v SINGLE PHASE... might open up some new business there.

A small machine with Mitsubishi control, servo drives, and spindle drive under 7.5 HP can usually be run on 240V single phase. The CNC is single phase anyway. The servo and spindle drives don't care if the power is single or 3 phase as long as the DC bus voltage can be maintained. Since they are designed to run on 200V-240V 3 phase, they are able to draw enough power from 240V single phase to run nicely. If your single phase power is much less than 240V you may have trouble maintaining DC bus voltage. Lengthening the accel/decel times will fix that.

If the machine has a hydraulic system you need to wire in an inverter to power the hydraulic pump motor. The coolant pump will probably be 3 phase too and an inverter is usually less costly to add than it is to buy a single phase coolant pump.

I've had my machine running like this for over 6 years now with zero trouble. Cost ~$100 for the inverter to power the coolant pump. Took a couple hours to do the install.
 
The Brother machines are fancy enough they can tell if the voltage is wrong, although to what extent, I'm not sure. You'll get a message on the screen and it won't start up if it doesn't like the voltage.

First time trying to start mine it didn't like the voltage. I partially booted and gave a message about the input voltage. I had the isolation transformer hooked up to bring the 240 down to 208, but while the phase-phase voltages all checked out, the phase to ground still had a high leg (as does the delta input). The tech was able to fool it by swapping two wires, but I got on the phone with the xfmr mfg and got further instructions. Grounding the output neutral on the xfmr brought it down and the machine started up. I didn't feel like playing games considering the investment.
 
A small machine with Mitsubishi control, servo drives, and spindle drive under 7.5 HP can usually be run on 240V single phase. The CNC is single phase anyway. The servo and spindle drives don't care if the power is single or 3 phase as long as the DC bus voltage can be maintained. Since they are designed to run on 200V-240V 3 phase, they are able to draw enough power from 240V single phase to run nicely. If your single phase power is much less than 240V you may have trouble maintaining DC bus voltage. Lengthening the accel/decel times will fix that.

If the machine has a hydraulic system you need to wire in an inverter to power the hydraulic pump motor. The coolant pump will probably be 3 phase too and an inverter is usually less costly to add than it is to buy a single phase coolant pump.

I've had my machine running like this for over 6 years now with zero trouble. Cost ~$100 for the inverter to power the coolant pump. Took a couple hours to do the install.

What he said. I'm curious if you set the tap on the 'T1' transformer that all brother machines have in the control cabinet? There is a tap for 200, 210, 220 and 230V. you select the tap that is closest to your incoming voltage. This is necessary to get the 5V and 24V DC systems in the right range.
 
Might be 1% phase to phase, RPC's can be pretty bad for voltage imbalance. Either way, a Phase Perfect would be a wise investment for a new machine like that. I run my 20hp PP output through a delta/wye transformer to lower voltage.
 
What he said. I'm curious if you set the tap on the 'T1' transformer that all brother machines have in the control cabinet? There is a tap for 200, 210, 220 and 230V. you select the tap that is closest to your incoming voltage. This is necessary to get the 5V and 24V DC systems in the right range.

The machine I run on single phase is not a Brother so no "T1" transformer. The machine I run on single phase has a single phase control transformer used to power solenoids. One of the things I had to do when setting it up to run on single phase was to verify that the primary winding of that transformer was wired to R, and S, legs of the incoming power and set its tap to the 240V position.

My response was just to tell user tomjelly that small CNCs can sometimes be made to run on single phase despite the manufacturer specifying 3 phase.
 
The machine I run on single phase is not a Brother so no "T1" transformer. The machine I run on single phase has a single phase control transformer used to power solenoids. One of the things I had to do when setting it up to run on single phase was to verify that the primary winding of that transformer was wired to R, and S, legs of the incoming power and set its tap to the 240V position.

My response was just to tell user tomjelly that small CNCs can sometimes be made to run on single phase despite the manufacturer specifying 3 phase.

Sorry Biker, my comment was for CosmosK.
 
I have just been through this process having bought a S500, and it's a little amazing to me that no one at Yamazen seems to have ever heard of a Phase Perfect or anyone using or needing a buck transformer. I just ordered a buck transformer last night as for $350 it makes sense after spending what I did on the machine, and $5,100 on the phase perfect.

Similar problems with rigging and delivery into a garage. Up front, yes yes possible everyone puts them into garages. But now that it comes time, it looks like I will have to deal with freight and rigging on my own, maybe even taking the column wiring off to get it under the garage, or whatever is needed.

Maybe my expectations were unrealistic, but Yamazen had a really high reputation of the best in the industry. The only thing I have to compare to is Automate, which is phone support only, but at the moment, they seem about the same. Things will probably change once the machine is installed, but for now I have had to figure out everything, make calls and research everything. I'm used to it, but had just maybe expected a different experience getting into a higher tier of machine.
 
I have just been through this process having bought a S500, and it's a little amazing to me that no one at Yamazen seems to have ever heard of a Phase Perfect or anyone using or needing a buck transformer. I just ordered a buck transformer last night as for $350 it makes sense after spending what I did on the machine, and $5,100 on the phase perfect.

Similar problems with rigging and delivery into a garage. Up front, yes yes possible everyone puts them into garages. But now that it comes time, it looks like I will have to deal with freight and rigging on my own, maybe even taking the column wiring off to get it under the garage, or whatever is needed.

Maybe my expectations were unrealistic, but Yamazen had a really high reputation of the best in the industry. The only thing I have to compare to is Automate, which is phone support only, but at the moment, they seem about the same. Things will probably change once the machine is installed, but for now I have had to figure out everything, make calls and research everything. I'm used to it, but had just maybe expected a different experience getting into a higher tier of machine.

When I worked field service for machinery companies, we were told to not tell the customer anything beyond the manufacturer's published requirements for power, location, air, etc. Corporately they did not want to expose themselves to the liability of advising a customer that their RPC would run the machine fine and then face it possibly not working or that trying to run higher or lower voltage than the manufacturer stated would be OK. The company position was "show these power requirements to your electrician so he knows what he needs to do for you". We were responsible to verify correct power (voltage and phase rotation) during the install.

Freight charges were sometimes negotiated into the deal instead of a discount. Would have been very much out of the ordinary though. Buyer always handled rigging, either DIY if capable, or contracted to a rigging firm. I don't recall ever seeing rigging negotiated into a deal.

Helping the buyer with further disassembly of a machine to be installed was a common thing for us to do. If schedule allowed it, we tried to be on hand during the uncrating/rigging to keep an eye on things and make sure someone was not about to do something wrong.
 
Thanks for all the continued discussion guys, appreciate the input on the 4th Axis options. Prices were... HIGH. While I may have lost some leverage now that I purchased the machine, hopefully the guys will work with me now that I am a hooked customer. Everything I was quoted was at list price... and those options really add up.

The guys at Yamazen have been great so far and are working to meet my.... ah, shall we say, aggressive timing. They received the down payment and PO on the 27th, today the order was received in Chicago. I challenged them to have the machine delivered to the rigger in time for install in my shop October 9th. Which happens to be my birthday.

Likewise Yamazen Tooling division is scrambling to get some goodies to me by the 9th so I have tooling to do test cuts on the machine at install.

Will be putting in an order with Mari, just to make sure I have some holders in hand.

Thanks a ton for all the discussion and input guys. There are a lot of things I would love to do differently, but the money has to come from somewhere, and until the money printer is set up...

For the sake of discussion, I wasn't PLANNING to buy a machine until next year. So I did not have a healthy reserve of cash built up like I had intended. My Yamazen sales rep dropped a bomb in my lap Wednesday morning, so I had LITTLE time to react.
 








 
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