Is SW CAM / CAMWorks as clunky and useless as it looks?

[gkoenig]

Do you have any experience with the CMM module in NX?

I honestly have no experience with the CMM side of things.

Probably the biggest single advantage of NX is that all of the more advanced applications run under the same roof as the CAD, and the CMM demos are no different. All your tools for setting up and constraining geometry are the same you use every day in the CAD environment; you aren't stuck with some outdated tinker toy CAD that gets tacked onto standalone CMM software. of course, any dimension or tolerance you specify in the CAD side (drawings, PMI, MBD) get shot right over to the CMM side.

Being not a CMM guy, the part of the demo that sold me was that the integration allows for basically no programming. If you put PMI on your part for all the critical stuff, all you need to do on the CMM side is place it in your machine simulation model, give the system the initial alignment point, and NX does all the rest of it for you. IDK if that is how Calypso or the other CMM packages work, but it is exactly the same tech I am using for the camera stuff outlined above, so I can almost promise you it works as advertised.

 

[gkoenig]

I’m a small one man shop, when I had the discussion with NX and expressed my concerned with it being a subscription they came back and said they understand my concern and would be willing to look into perpetual license and would discuss it with Siemens, but I felt it would have turned into one of them things 2 years down the road I’d be pushed into a subscription. Maybe not though.

So being curious about this, I emailed my salesperson and asked what the story was. Her response (trimmed for personal info):

While it’s true that Siemens is making some changes to move towards a XAAS offering, perpetual licenses are still available. The only part I would argue is that it isn’t that big of an issue to sell perpetual at this point, however, it is what Siemens would prefer us to sell to new customers. There is no current plan to move perpetual customers to subscription licensing.

 

[BugRobotics]

So being curious about this, I emailed my salesperson and asked what the story was. Her response (trimmed for personal info):

While it’s true that Siemens is making some changes to move towards a XAAS offering, perpetual licenses are still available. The only part I would argue is that it isn’t that big of an issue to sell perpetual at this point, however, it is what Siemens would prefer us to sell to new customers. There is no current plan to move perpetual customers to subscription licensing.

Did they say anything about the three year "no maintenance, no access" or is that common knowledge amongst NX users?

 

[Marvel]

So being curious about this, I emailed my salesperson and asked what the story was. Her response (trimmed for personal info):

While it’s true that Siemens is making some changes to move towards a XAAS offering, perpetual licenses are still available. The only part I would argue is that it isn’t that big of an issue to sell perpetual at this point, however, it is what Siemens would prefer us to sell to new customers. There is no current plan to move perpetual customers to subscription licensing.

Interesting, thanks for sharing that. It seems as if with any CAM reseller you can get a difference of response from one VAR to the next. I wonder if there is any sort of value to some VAR's getting customers on a subscription vs perpetual license. If the thought process with a subscription is a customer "feels stuck" and will continue year after year so they don't loose any data. That's how I kind of feel with subscriptions. Forcing subscriptions seems like one way to eliminate the users that are fine with not paying annual maintenance and are fine with programming in a version 5 years old.

 

[Antarctica]

I was told:

After 3 years if you don't renew, the license gets turned off. You still own all your data but you won't have access to the software. It's the same setup if you had a subscription to a CRM or other type of subscription software.

Currently, perpetual licensing is still available. However, we just got back from a Siemens reeducational conference last week and they are moving everything to subscription and it's an uphill battle for any new perpetual licensing. Perpetual licensing will eventually all disappear it's just a matter of when.

Not to derail this thread, but between the autodicks history, this data point from siemens, etc... It ever the world was ripe for a massive open source community developed project, its got to be good CAD/CAM.

I'm currently learning KiCAD, which is a circuit board layout tool, and while not quite up to the commercial offerings (I come from using Altium and OrCad for what its worth), it is sooooooo close! If they keep the right focus, it could completely be there in the next release.

The demand for CAD/CAM could be phenomenal as far as community support both in terms of volunteers that have an interest, and funding. If I hit the billion dollar lotto, I promise I'll get it kicked off..

 

[gkoenig]

Did they say anything about the three year "no maintenance, no access" or is that common knowledge amongst NX users?

That is never a thing I've heard about NX. To be fair, the vast vast majority of NX users have nothing to do with the license purchasing or contracts. I do know if you don't continue maintenance, you have 3 years to backdate the fees and get current again, after which Siemens will make you re-purchase from scratch, but everyone with a perpetual license is doing that now.

I get why people love perpetual licenses, but I think they are absolutely going away across the industry here soon. They will probably be offered for some time, but under more and more onerous terms. I don't think Sandvik or Hexagon paid what they did for MasterCAM and Esprit only to keep using a business model that is widely considered outdated in the software industry. And nobody knows what the hell DSS is doing; SolidWorks hasn't gotten any real updated in years and years, while the 3D Experience platform is wildly incoherent... but it is 100% subscription based.

 

[gkoenig]

The demand for CAD/CAM could be phenomenal as far as community support both in terms of volunteers that have an interest, and funding. If I hit the billion dollar lotto, I promise I'll get it kicked off..

The thing of it is; you would spend $1 Billion and have little to show for it. Since it was started, Fusion has been something on the order of a $3.5 Billion investment. Much of that is in acquisitions, but the core Fusion product itself is easily in the 7 figures.

 

[Pete Deal]

Not to derail this thread, but between the autodicks history, this data point from siemens, etc... It ever the world was ripe for a massive open source community developed project, its got to be good CAD/CAM.

I'm currently learning KiCAD, which is a circuit board layout tool, and while not quite up to the commercial offerings (I come from using Altium and OrCad for what its worth), it is sooooooo close! If they keep the right focus, it could completely be there in the next release.

The demand for CAD/CAM could be phenomenal as far as community support both in terms of volunteers that have an interest, and funding. If I hit the billion dollar lotto, I promise I'll get it kicked off..

I've had the same thought. I PM'd some of this to BugRobotics. About 30 years ago I did a bunch of PC board design. When I moved to WV I never did much of it again until last year when a customer pulled me back into it. For this most recent work I used Kicad and it's free. At least what I used was free and very nice. Also, other related development software for microcontroller development is now free. This stuff was available 30 years ago but the cost was out of reach for an itty bitty business like mine. And the free stuff of today is way better than the stuff was 30 years ago.

I wouldn't be surprised if CAD/CAM will head the same way.

 

[BugRobotics]

That is never a thing I've heard about NX. To be fair, the vast vast majority of NX users have nothing to do with the license purchasing or contracts. I do know if you don't continue maintenance, you have 3 years to backdate the fees and get current again, after which Siemens will make you re-purchase from scratch, but everyone with a perpetual license is doing that now.

I get why people love perpetual licenses, but I think they are absolutely going away across the industry here soon. They will probably be offered for some time, but under more and more onerous terms. I don't think Sandvik or Hexagon paid what they did for MasterCAM and Esprit only to keep using a business model that is widely considered outdated in the software industry. And nobody knows what the hell DSS is doing; SolidWorks hasn't gotten any real updated in years and years, while the 3D Experience platform is wildly incoherent... but it is 100% subscription based.

Yea, I hear you. A boy can dream. Totally agree regarding SW. I was looking at NX two years ago but got roped in with two clients who were using two different SW versions. I was constantly creating parts/assmy/drawings and just didn't want to have to learn NX and deal with the conversion process. I'll be looking into it again in the future.

 

[Pete Deal]

That is never a thing I've heard about NX. To be fair, the vast vast majority of NX users have nothing to do with the license purchasing or contracts. I do know if you don't continue maintenance, you have 3 years to backdate the fees and get current again, after which Siemens will make you re-purchase from scratch, but everyone with a perpetual license is doing that now.

I get why people love perpetual licenses, but I think they are absolutely going away across the industry here soon. They will probably be offered for some time, but under more and more onerous terms. I don't think Sandvik or Hexagon paid what they did for MasterCAM and Esprit only to keep using a business model that is widely considered outdated in the software industry. And nobody knows what the hell DSS is doing; SolidWorks hasn't gotten any real updated in years and years, while the 3D Experience platform is wildly incoherent... but it is 100% subscription based.

In my world this 21st century licensing BS is all about the software developers keeping the drunken party going at the home office. I am not designing planes, trains, and automobiles. Just little parts. Not turbine blades for super sonic jets either. So, there is no real value being added by these payments year after year. As an analogy I use MS word and excel I think the version is from '97 or something. It works great. I've also started to use open office. This suits me just fine too. Maybe the CAD/CAM folks could fix a few bugs, that would be good. Most of the bugs are probably caused by their stupid tweaks to make us all feel like we're getting something from these payments any way.

It's not like utilities where there is something that needs to be done to keep the service going. Once complete software is a static thing it does what it does and that's it. Unless of course you buy into the software as a service BS concept which is total garbage.

Now for the guys that have a 5 axis machine and want to put videos of it doing crazy stuff on instagram making indian heads or wolves or whatever, those are the guys that really need to pay. They have too much money anyway.

 

[Antarctica]

The thing of it is; you would spend $1 Billion and have little to show for it. Since it was started, Fusion has been something on the order of a $3.5 Billion investment. Much of that is in acquisitions, but the core Fusion product itself is easily in the 7 figures.

Looking at the funding that KiCad gets, it's pennies on the dollar to what a business puts into a commercial development. Most of the people writing code are volunteers and do so for nothing more than the benefit they and others get from it. There is some external funding, but not much. The funding amount cited on their pages are a pittance for what they have developed.

That said, a development of that complexity, with a 3d core, etc., is as you indicated, well into the 7-8 figures even for a community developed open source effort. But I think there would be enough world support to provide that if something viable got off the ground. Getting up a minimum viable product that people believe has legs is the hard part. If people see that and believe their money will move it forward, I think the money will flow...

 

[gregormarwick]

Looking at the funding that KiCad gets, it's pennies on the dollar to what a business puts into a commercial development. Most of the people writing code are volunteers and do so for nothing more than the benefit they and others get from it. There is some external funding, but not much. The funding amount cited on their pages are a pittance for what they have developed.

That said, a development of that complexity, with a 3d core, etc., is as you indicated, well into the 7-8 figures even for a community developed open source effort. But I think there would be enough world support to provide that if something viable got off the ground. Getting up a minimum viable product that people believe has legs is the hard part. If people see that and believe their money will move it forward, I think the money will flow...

Freecad has a robust core, and all the fundamental vector/spatial transform support required for multiaxis toolpathing. The cam is very basic right now, but last time I looked at it they had a very respectable adaptive roughing path figured out and working.

It will get there eventually, but probably not in a timeframe that is meaningful to most of us.

 

[mhajicek]

I've talked to FOSS fanbois about not being able to get good CADCAM on Linux, and they sneer at me and tell me to just write some myself. They don't realize that the scale of work is comparable to a moonshot. Who knows how many professional programmers, some of which are certifiable geniuses, have worked for decades (over 40 years in some cases) to build up this software from its humble roots.

 

[Bigdawg]

All of the CAM packages I have used took some time to learn to be proficient in, a 30 day demo will get you a feel for it, but you won't be fast. Likewise, having a good post is very important as well, which you won't have in a demo period.

At my current job I am using Mastercam, but I don't use the solidworks integrated one, even though I use Solidworks for part design. I like to have a separate CAM file so if I want to tweak something I can without having to mess with the model.The integrated one is to clunky and we don't make a lot of changes that it matters for us. I also have a custom tool database created and most standard tool paths saved to import, so all you have to do is import and pick geometry.

For 2D light and simple 3D I liked Bobocad actually. When I used it back in 2005 - 2009 it was cheap and did what I need to do, but I had to develop customization's for it to be fluid and cut down programing time. Which is what I think most people need to do as off the shelf CAM packages are very generic out of the box.

 

[JasHarvey]

I've used Camworks for the last twenty years. I'm not very computer savvy so when I start learning a new software, I stick with it. I've never so much as sniffed another CAM package so I'm not the person to make comparisons. I will say though, there's not many parts if any, I can't program with Camworks in a reasonable amount of time. So if you're anything like me i.e, not very computer savvy, just stick with the package you have and learn it inside and out.

 

[french_toast_wizard]

I am currently managing a small shop that works primarily with prototypes and limited production

- About six months ago I was asked to begin the process of implementing and migrating our CAM operations to the basic SWcam that is included with our 5 or 6 seats away from utilizing the old MX5 we've been using since I started with the company. If anyone has recommendations for the development of a solid TechDB and implementation of SWcam. I'd be very interested in being able to showcase an ROI to my superiors for moving into CAMWorks and investing in 4th+5th axis capabilities.

Thanks for any insights.

 

[e30ryan]

Very interested in this thread.... Glad to see that it has evolved into a well thought-out discussion about Solidworks, CAM, and its integration....
Machining is my side-hustle (evenings only). My needs are 99% 2D / 2.5D work. Every once in a while I have to generate a 3D path. My part quantities are generally 1-20 pieces. Usually very simple parts, but I need to be able to program them very quickly. In the course of a 2 hour night of machining, I will be posting to the machine 5-10 times. I simply do not have time for convoluted CAM.

I have been using HSMworks for Solidworks for the past ~5 years. My day job is mechanical design and I use Solidworks exclusively. When first dipping my toes into CAM I tried the Mastercam for Solidworks (I have always had the impression that Mastercam was the best, right?). I couldn't figure it out... Maybe it was my CAD-driven intuition that couldn't figure out a program that wasn't built on CAD.
I tried Fusion because of all the hype. My god the CAD is horrible! But luckily I stumbled upon HSMworks and I was able to very quickly self-teach my way through it. I can very quickly generate a toolpath or two, get it running on the machine, and simultaneously work on the next path before the cycle is over. Having the CAM integrated into CAD is a life saver - I couldn't operate having to export a STEP into a standalone CAM system...

Now, like most people, I am becoming less and less confident with the future of HSMworks and Autodesk. I am very interested in getting into something new before the proverbial rug is taken out from under me and I am left to scramble to find a solution.

I suppose I am hoping that someone can convince me that it is worth the effort to switch to Camworks NX could be a consideration but it would be a harder sell for me.

 

[Marvel]

Very interested in this thread.... Glad to see that it has evolved into a well thought-out discussion about Solidworks, CAM, and its integration....
Machining is my side-hustle (evenings only). My needs are 99% 2D / 2.5D work. Every once in a while I have to generate a 3D path. My part quantities are generally 1-20 pieces. Usually very simple parts, but I need to be able to program them very quickly. In the course of a 2 hour night of machining, I will be posting to the machine 5-10 times. I simply do not have time for convoluted CAM.

I have been using HSMworks for Solidworks for the past ~5 years. My day job is mechanical design and I use Solidworks exclusively. When first dipping my toes into CAM I tried the Mastercam for Solidworks (I have always had the impression that Mastercam was the best, right?). I couldn't figure it out... Maybe it was my CAD-driven intuition that couldn't figure out a program that wasn't built on CAD.
I tried Fusion because of all the hype. My god the CAD is horrible! But luckily I stumbled upon HSMworks and I was able to very quickly self-teach my way through it. I can very quickly generate a toolpath or two, get it running on the machine, and simultaneously work on the next path before the cycle is over. Having the CAM integrated into CAD is a life saver - I couldn't operate having to export a STEP into a standalone CAM system...

Now, like most people, I am becoming less and less confident with the future of HSMworks and Autodesk. I am very interested in getting into something new before the proverbial rug is taken out from under me and I am left to scramble to find a solution.

I suppose I am hoping that someone can convince me that it is worth the effort to switch to Camworks NX could be a consideration but it would be a harder sell for me.

If you are up to date on your SolidWorks you have SolidWorksCAM included which is CAMWorks, its basic 2.5D module. Check your SW Add-Ins and see if its unselected. You can step up a little bit within the SolidWorksCAM bundles but if you want more of the Multi Axis tool paths that's when you move over to the CAMworks bundles. But if 99% of what you are doing is 2D / 2.5D you might be able to utilize that included SolidWorksCAM at no additional cost.

 

[Marvel]

I am currently managing a small shop that works primarily with prototypes and limited production

- About six months ago I was asked to begin the process of implementing and migrating our CAM operations to the basic SWcam that is included with our 5 or 6 seats away from utilizing the old MX5 we've been using since I started with the company. If anyone has recommendations for the development of a solid TechDB and implementation of SWcam. I'd be very interested in being able to showcase an ROI to my superiors for moving into CAMWorks and investing in 4th+5th axis capabilities.

Thanks for any insights.

Your TechDB takes time, no ones will be the same. I've been using CAMWorks for almost 15 years now and for years I didn't touch the TechDB. It's been the last 5-7 years I really invested the time into it and it has made programming a majority of my parts really efficient. It's always being edited. Best thing I can say is as you are programming start saving your operations to the TechDB within the Optimize tab of the operation.