I've got a leak!!! 1962 10EE

[medic29]

Good evening. I've got a 1962 square dial 10EE, it has the three site glasses on the headstock. I spent quite a bit of time this fall working with the electronics and getting the lathe running. So figured before I began using it it would be a good idea to go ahead and change out all of the fluids and replace them; who knows how old the fluids are that are currently in it.

So I drained everything as best I could tell. I had noticed the rear spindle area hadn't drained after I drained the fluids which perplexed me at the time. I began filling it up with the appropriate fluids. When I went to fill the front spindle area, I noticed oil flowing out the front of the spindle, which it had not done previously. Upon closer examination I discovered it was coming from directly under the nose of the spindle, where it comes out of the flange. (see picture)

the red line is pointing to where it is leaking; it is not leaking from the bottom of the flange.

When I found that it was leaking like that I stopped and decided I needed to do some research. Everything I've read on here about the spindle leaking was saying it was most likely because it was overfilled. I also found the only way to drain both the rear and front spindle is to remove the site glasses, which I hadn't done previously, which made me more hopeful I had just overfilled it.

Fast forward to today, I removed both the front and rear site glasses for the spindle and allowed the oil to drain. After it finished draining I replaced the site glasses and went about filling both sections back up with new fluid. With the rear, no problem and it is hold its fluid level fine. The front, it is still leaking in that area just underneath the spindle nose and the middle of the flange. I have been going through my manual and can't see why it would be leaking there, especially since it hadn't leaked before I drained the fluid, or thought I had drained the fluid.



Then....I discovered another area the began leaking when I put fluid back in it!!!! I had drained the back gear reducer attached to the motor. Not a lot of oil drained from it when I was draining fluids. It had sounded loud when I would run the lathe in back gears and after draining the oil I wondered if that could be the reason. Now the site glass, I can't see through it. I tried taking that part off the side of the gear box so I could clean the site window and ended up giving up on that idea because I think I'm going to have to pull the motor out so I can get to the back screws; I was hoping I could get by and not have to do that. So in looking in the manual it said the reducer should take about 3 pints of oil (seemed like a lot to me, but that's what it says), so I started putting in 3 pints of oil. After the second pint oil began leaking from somewhere behind the pulley. So, now I'm wondering if it is leaking because it was overfilled, or if there is another problem. But, when looking at that reducing gear box, I can't imagine it is supposed to hold 1.5 quarts (3 pints); that just seems like a lot.


You folks have more experience than I, what are your thoughts on my spindle leak.

Thoughts about backgear leak?? My thoughts currently is I'm going to go back to working on getting that attachment off the side of the gearbox which has the site glass. If that entails pulling the motor out a little bit, I'm most likely going to have to do that to fix whatever the issue is if it isn't overfilled. I'm hoping to be able to get that off without pulling the motor forward. Then I can clean the site glass and try filling it up until it is in the middle of the site glass.

Any help is appreciated!!!

 

[bsg]

Good evening. I've got a 1962 square dial 10EE, it has the three site glasses on the headstock. I spent quite a bit of time this fall working with the electronics and getting the lathe running. So figured before I began using it it would be a good idea to go ahead and change out all of the fluids and replace them; who knows how old the fluids are that are currently in it.

So I drained everything as best I could tell. I had noticed the rear spindle area hadn't drained after I drained the fluids which perplexed me at the time. I began filling it up with the appropriate fluids. When I went to fill the front spindle area, I noticed oil flowing out the front of the spindle, which it had not done previously. Upon closer examination I discovered it was coming from directly under the nose of the spindle, where it comes out of the flange. (see picture)

the red line is pointing to where it is leaking; it is not leaking from the bottom of the flange.

When I found that it was leaking like that I stopped and decided I needed to do some research. Everything I've read on here about the spindle leaking was saying it was most likely because it was overfilled. I also found the only way to drain both the rear and front spindle is to remove the site glasses, which I hadn't done previously, which made me more hopeful I had just overfilled it.

Fast forward to today, I removed both the front and rear site glasses for the spindle and allowed the oil to drain. After it finished draining I replaced the site glasses and went about filling both sections back up with new fluid. With the rear, no problem and it is hold its fluid level fine. The front, it is still leaking in that area just underneath the spindle nose and the middle of the flange. I have been going through my manual and can't see why it would be leaking there, especially since it hadn't leaked before I drained the fluid, or thought I had drained the fluid.



Then....I discovered another area the began leaking when I put fluid back in it!!!! I had drained the back gear reducer attached to the motor. Not a lot of oil drained from it when I was draining fluids. It had sounded loud when I would run the lathe in back gears and after draining the oil I wondered if that could be the reason. Now the site glass, I can't see through it. I tried taking that part off the side of the gear box so I could clean the site window and ended up giving up on that idea because I think I'm going to have to pull the motor out so I can get to the back screws; I was hoping I could get by and not have to do that. So in looking in the manual it said the reducer should take about 3 pints of oil (seemed like a lot to me, but that's what it says), so I started putting in 3 pints of oil. After the second pint oil began leaking from somewhere behind the pulley. So, now I'm wondering if it is leaking because it was overfilled, or if there is another problem. But, when looking at that reducing gear box, I can't imagine it is supposed to hold 1.5 quarts (3 pints); that just seems like a lot.


You folks have more experience than I, what are your thoughts on my spindle leak.

Thoughts about backgear leak?? My thoughts currently is I'm going to go back to working on getting that attachment off the side of the gearbox which has the site glass. If that entails pulling the motor out a little bit, I'm most likely going to have to do that to fix whatever the issue is if it isn't overfilled. I'm hoping to be able to get that off without pulling the motor forward. Then I can clean the site glass and try filling it up until it is in the middle of the site glass.

Any help is appreciated!!!

I don't know about the spindle, but the back gear box has a labyrinth seal, if it has two much/ wrong oil it will come out past the seal.......also, what is the temperature where the machine is at, if it's too cold I could see it leaking as well?

I had a back gear on one of my 10ee's that was a little noisy, used a Lucas oil synthetic product, big mistake!
It was definitely quieter, until the oil started coming out passed the seal!

Good luck!

Kevin

 

[Desmato]

The sight glasses become hard to read through and the level is sometimes not seen correctly due to staining.

My backgear, Like yours, was hard to see so I kept adding oil until it started pouring out of the shaft seal, and as it was mentioned, this uses a metal labrynth setup so easy to leak if too much oil is in there. I drained it all out, took the sightglass "pod" off the machine (Easy to do with an allen wrench by feel) and extended the drain with an elbow and a 2" nipple. Reassembled and filled to the proper amount. BTW, that "pod" uses 2 o-rings to seal against the main housing so no need for a gasket, but make sure they are in place during assembly. the glass itself is pressed into the cast housing and NOT something I would remove, mabey flush with a solvent to clean, but not remove.

As for the "Spindle area", on my 1967 Square, there are 2 drains, 2 fill points, and 2 different types of oil used. the top one is for the spindle only and uses spindle oil. The drain is the lower area is the gearbox and has a separate drian/fill spout and uses heavy/medium (same as the gear reduction unit). Make sure you are draining and filling both individually or you will be overfilling one or both.

Your pics didn't come through but if your spindle area has 3 sight glasses, there may be more than the 1 drain in the pic below. Mine only has the 1 spindle glass and fill on top. I see the older ones have 3 glasses and 3 fill points. main is on the top of the head, the other 2 look to be small screw caps a few inches above each glass

 

[Desmato]

here are the drains

 

[Desmato]

Fill points

 

[rimcanyon]

The gearbox has two drains because there are two oil sumps. The sump on the left supplies oil to the back gear train; the sump on the right supplies oil to the cone gears and shifter and related shafts. There is only one fill port and one sight glass. The fill port goes into the sump on the left. The sight glass shows the sump on the right. There is an internal weir, so when the sump on the left is full, oil starts filling the sump on the right. Keep filling until the sight glass level is correct. During running the level is higher on the left, but over time that oil enters the sump on the right (due to splash and from running on shafts and through bearings, etc), causing the level to go up, above the mark. Strange design...

 

[Don's Engine]

Desmato is right about the pod. Its well worth your while to make sure you can see the oil level perfectly. It doesn't take a lot and will push out through the input shaft area if just slightly over. Also it may be wise to be sure the lathe is level when you're doing this. I dicked with mine before a realized the slope on my garage floor was flowing all my oil toward the front of the spindle and to the input shaft of the back gear box. Once I made up some adjustable feet and got it off the 4X4 blocks, life go better. Don

 

[medic29]

Desmato is right about the pod. Its well worth your while to make sure you can see the oil level perfectly. It doesn't take a lot and will push out through the input shaft area if just slightly over. Also it may be wise to be sure the lathe is level when you're doing this. I dicked with mine before a realized the slope on my garage floor was flowing all my oil toward the front of the spindle and to the input shaft of the back gear box. Once I made up some adjustable feet and got it off the 4X4 blocks, life go better. Don

I'll have to check the level issue. This was on my list of to do's. I had been looking for adjustable feet for the lathe so I could level it once I got to that point, as it is right now, it is sitting on 4x4 blocks.

Just for clarification, the one drain shown will drain both the front and rear spindle areas?? (my lathe has the 3 site windows on the headstock versus the one site window). When I used this drain it didn't appear to drain the rear spindle compartment, then I had read here that the only drain for the front and rear spindle compartments were the site glasses. This seems odd to me that Monarch wouldn't have put drains in for the spindle compartments like they did all of the others, but I defer to those more knowledgeable. So, if possible, please clarify the drain for the spindle compartments is on the headstock end of the lathe in the area where the other drains are located??

@Don's Engine, did you make your adjustable feet? Could you provide a pic if you have time?? This is something I'm interested in doing.

I also took Cal's advice and ordered the correct oils (circulating oil) for this machine. I had to order 5 gallons of each, which should last me a while once I get these leaks figured out and controlled.

 

[TheOldCar]

My 10EEs leak oil everywhere.

 

[TBJK]

I believe Don has a video of the leveling feet on YouTube.

 

[Don's Engine]

Yes, sir, you have to pull the sight glasses for the front and rear of the spindle area. There isn't much in there at all. I'll do you better than a picture, check here Make adjustable heavy duty lathe feet. Adjustable feet for Monarch 10EE - Excerpt compilation - YouTube Don

 

[Cal Haines]

... I've got a 1962 square dial 10EE, it has the three site glasses on the headstock. ...

So I drained everything as best I could tell. I had noticed the rear spindle area hadn't drained after I drained the fluids which perplexed me at the time. I began filling it up with the appropriate fluids. When I went to fill the front spindle area, I noticed oil flowing out the front of the spindle, which it had not done previously. Upon closer examination I discovered it was coming from directly under the nose of the spindle, where it comes out of the flange. (see picture)

the red line is pointing to where it is leaking; it is not leaking from the bottom of the flange.

When I found that it was leaking like that I stopped and decided I needed to do some research. Everything I've read on here about the spindle leaking was saying it was most likely because it was overfilled. I also found the only way to drain both the rear and front spindle is to remove the site glasses, which I hadn't done previously, which made me more hopeful I had just overfilled it.

Fast forward to today, I removed both the front and rear site glasses for the spindle and allowed the oil to drain. After it finished draining I replaced the site glasses and went about filling both sections back up with new fluid. With the rear, no problem and it is hold its fluid level fine. The front, it is still leaking in that area just underneath the spindle nose and the middle of the flange. I have been going through my manual and can't see why it would be leaking there, especially since it hadn't leaked before I drained the fluid, or thought I had drained the fluid.
...

The leak at the spindle nose in coming from a drain hole in the Front Bearing Retainer Plate (EE-1128). Here's a cross section of the front spindle with a red line showing the location of the drain hole:

The only way that oil gets to the drain hole is by traveling between the spindle itself and the ID of EE-1128. Any oil that finds its way through the gap is spun off by the two ribs on the back of the spindle nose. (This is essentially half of a labyrinth seal; a full labyrinth seal is seen between the left-hand bearing and the main cavity in the headstock.) Overfilling the reservoir can cause the problem, and that can be a result of a stained sight glass that makes it look like the oil level is always low. Another possibility is the wrong oil: DTE Light has excellent anti-foaming additives. Hydraulic oils, intended to work under pressure in a closed system, typically don't have the same anti-foaming properties.

The return passages on the back of EE-1128 (colored cyan) are discussed here (link) and elsewhere in the thread.

Cal

 

[medic29]

Desmato is right about the pod. Its well worth your while to make sure you can see the oil level perfectly. It doesn't take a lot and will push out through the input shaft area if just slightly over. Also it may be wise to be sure the lathe is level when you're doing this. I dicked with mine before a realized the slope on my garage floor was flowing all my oil toward the front of the spindle and to the input shaft of the back gear box. Once I made up some adjustable feet and got it off the 4X4 blocks, life go better. Don

@Don, you were correct. My lathe was out of level with the tailstock end down. I have raised it up and got it shimmed, then very carefully added some oil, small amounts at a time and the front spindle filled up to the line and did not leak.

I also drained all of the new oil out of the back gears again and was able to remove that section which has the oil level site glass because I couldn't see through it at all. Getting it somewhat clean was a challenge in itself because there are only two small holes to get to the glass from the inside and they don't line up with any other hole. So I filled it with some mineral spirits, then went out and got some bristle pipe cleaners from the shop and after a bit of bending was able to snake them into the area right behind the site window. I got it cleaned some, then put the whole thing in an ultrasonic cleaner with the mineral spirits and ran it for a while, then went back at it with the pipe cleaners. I would have rather pulled the site glass out and cleaned it that way, but from what I understand that is next to impossible. So I filled the back gear section up again and had to go slow and wait for the oil to get down to the glass and it is now at the correct height and no longer leaking.

The leak at the spindle nose in coming from a drain hole in the Front Bearing Retainer Plate (EE-1128). Here's a cross section of the front spindle with a red line showing the location of the drain hole:

The only way that oil gets to the drain hole is by traveling between the spindle itself and the ID of EE-1128. Any oil that finds its way through the gap is spun off by the two ribs on the back of the spindle nose. (This is essentially half of a labyrinth seal; a full labyrinth seal is seen between the left-hand bearing and the main cavity in the headstock.) Overfilling the reservoir can cause the problem, and that can be a result of a stained sight glass that makes it look like the oil level is always low. Another possibility is the wrong oil: DTE Light has excellent anti-foaming additives. Hydraulic oils, intended to work under pressure in a closed system, typically don't have the same anti-foaming properties.

The return passages on the back of EE-1128 (colored cyan) are discussed here (link) and elsewhere in the thread.

Cal

Cal, thanks for piping in on this as well. I found a similar drawing you had posted in a different thread where you colored some of the different areas. I can't tell you how much that helped make sense of the drawing. When I looked at the drawing, the only thing that made sense was it was overfilled, but I had cleaned the site window and could see through it clearly and the level looked low and every time I filled it up to the correct height it was leak out. I believe it was mainly because the lathe was out of level with the tail end lower.

On the note of the oil....man, it was way confusing trying to figure out which oil to get and what would work, and who to believe. Folks stating Monarch told them to use such and such (hydraulic oil), etc. I can't remember which thread it was of your that I finally came across where you explained that the oil needed for these machines is circulating oil and the differences between the circulating oil and the hydraulic oils. I wrote in my manual the 3 oils you had remarked as the proper oils. I ended up buying 5 gallon buckets of each one. Most likely I'll never use that much, but I'll have it I'm glad to finally have the correct oils for this machine.

 

[medic29]

I'll do you better than a picture, check here Make adjustable heavy duty lathe feet. Adjustable feet for Monarch 10EE - Excerpt compilation - YouTube Don

I ordered some feet, but I sure like how easily yours adjusts. I' trying to think if there is a way to use what I purchased and make part of the mount like you did. Still thinking on this.

 

[Cal Haines]

... I had cleaned the site window and could see through it clearly and the level looked low and every time I filled it up to the correct height it was leak out. I believe it was mainly because the lathe was out of level with the tail end lower.
...

I don't think being out of level would cause that. Would the oil leak out immediately after you filled it, without running the spindle? If so, something else is going on. Does the oil leak down over time?

Cal

 

[medic29]

I don't think being out of level would cause that. Would the oil leak out immediately after you filled it, without running the spindle? If so, something else is going on. Does the oil leak down over time?

Cal

The oil ran out almost immediately after I put it in.

I want to agree with you, because previously when I would add oil (it would leak down over time), I never had any issues and the lathe has sat this way ever since I brought it into the workshop. It didn't begin leaking oil until after I drained all of the oil from the lathe. It sat there for a few days before I was able to get back to it and put oil back in it. Initially what leaked out was the DTE hydraulic fluid I put in there. To be clear, at that time I didn't know I had to remove the site window to drain that compartment. After I learned that I began to think maybe it was just a matter of being over-filled. So I removed the site window and allowed it to drain as much as it would drain. The replaced the site window and tried to fill it up again (I think I was still using the DTE at this point), and it ran out again.

Yesterday, I went out and checked the lathe for level and found the tailstock end was lower and got it raised up showing it is level, then put the new light circulating oil in and it didn't leak. I wiped everything down and put a dry pig mat below the spindle and ran the lathe for probably 20 minutes and it didn't leak and the level stayed the same.

I am getting ready to go back out to the workshop to check on things and maybe work on a project. My fingers are crossed that the level is the same as it was when I left last evening.

If you have other thoughts, let me know because this has definitely puzzled me and hasn't made sense; the part that it hadn't leaked while in the position previously, then suddenly began.

 

[Cal Haines]

The oil ran out almost immediately after I put it in.
...

It's hard to imagine how oil travels from the oil fill hole to the OD of the spindle, so that it can pass between the spindle and the front bearing retainer. The only thing that I can think of is that the outer spacer, shown here:

was installed incorrectly. If the spacer (discussed here: link) were installed so that rather than the drain hole pointing down, it points towards the fill hole, squirting oil in under pressure might temporarily overfill the bearings, until the oil trapped in the bottom of the spacer could drain through the bearing on either end. The back side of the front bearing retainer plate has passages at 5 and 7 O'clock that feed the front return channel, but not all machines have the same channel shown in the diagram in post #12.

Cal