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Jones Act - Ship Building:

I'm sure there is some nafta provision that will nullify this whole deal, whether we like it or not. something like Chapter 11, that this law is costing Nova Scotian boat builders' profits, so it will be struck down, or the US taxpayers will be out the lost profits we have to repay these companies in addition to the fact of the fishermen being out 200K+ each for a new boat.

It's interesting that the canadian boats are seen as "cheaper, better built and more economical on fuel." Sounds like the american boat industry is a reflection of the american car industry. no wonder folks want to buy from the foreign competition. We could try a little harder in some industries to make useful product instead of inefficient, poorly made junk... Although I want to buy american as much as the next guy, why make us suffer with crappy merchandise for full price, when the same or better product is available somewhere else for cheaper? Protectionist laws are good in some cases, and I think this is one. But how do you do that without the expense of forcing people to opt for an inferior product?

The problems with american manufacturing stem more from a sense of complacency and lack of innovation and investment, than all the others combined. the companies that innovate, provide what people want, and make adequate capital upgrades thrive, the others die off.

-jon
 
That LAW has been known for a LONG TIME.. and just because these guys tried to end run it and got caught, TUFF APPLES....

It's not one bit different than the LAW that EVERY Govmt contractor had to abide by when the contract REQUIRED 100% MADE in USA materials... Allow some cheapo to substitue cheap import material of lesser quality and win the bid? Our Sub's can and did fall to the bottom of the sea for this reason. Remember the THRESHER??

I know a contractor that got cought, and he was soooooo sorry, crockadile tears etc..but,
He was forced out of biz and did a long stretch in jail as a result....

Do you want your son in this ???

At 9:18 a.m. on April 10, 1963, sonar operators aboard the U.S. Navy submarine rescue ship Skylark, which was accompanying the nuclear attack submarine Thresher, heard a chilling sound “like air rushing into an air tank,” and Thresher was no more. Its deep-dive trials southeast of Cape Cod, Massachusetts, had come to a cataclysmic end and all 129 men aboard perished in 8,400 feet (2,560 meters) of water.
Five minutes prior to the implosion, Thresher had radioed that it was having minor problems. Skylark received several fragmentary, garbled messages, followed by silence. Moments later the chilling sounds of a submarine breaking apart and imploding were heard.

According to U.S. military reviews of the accident, the most likely explanation is that a piping joint in a sea water system in the engine room gave way. The resulting spray shorted out electronics and forced an automatic shutdown of the nuclear reactor.

Creaking Death

When the accident occurred, Thresher was near its maximum test depth, which, though classified, was probably around 1,300 feet (396 meters). Most submarines are built to survive down to a “crush depth,” which can be 20 to 35 percent greater than their maximum test depth. However, without the reactor, the sub would not have had enough power to stop itself from sinking to the bottom.

As they sank, the men aboard would have heard piping and fittings giving way. They would have listened as the ship’s hull creaked and groaned, until it finally, deafeningly gave way to massive water pressure. All lives were likely extinguished within a matter of seconds.

As a result of this, the NAVY instituted procedures and requirements so it would never happen again..
 
Lay off NAFTA !

A lot of comments are made about how NAFTA is bad. You only have 1/4 of the story.

NAFTA is BAD for US

Where are the other stories?

NAFTA is GOOD for US
NAFTA is BAD for Canada
NAFTA IS GOOD for Canada
The US is not living up to the terms of NAFTA.

You are being deceived by the US media into believing that there is only bad in NAFTA. They always focus on the bad in any situation to get controversy.

All this ranting and raving about NAFTA is a Democratic political football that masks the real questions. Democrats are sure going to get a lot of votes.

You're going to scrap NAFTA and happiness will spontaneously happen. I don't think so.

Research both sides of the question.
 
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We have some experience in Australia with the move away from protectionism.

Thumbnail history. In 1880 after 100 years of free trade we we the wealthiest nation on earth. After 100 years of protectionism we were down to 14 and sliding. In the 1980's tariff's and the like were cut many being ended.

There was a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. We could make everything here (remember Australia has 20 million people) we don't need to buy anything from anyone we would all have jobs and money and so on they went.

It died down after a while. There was through the 80's a strong left wing intelligentsia movement that spent it's time claiming we are going to be nothing more than the worlds mine and rubbish dump. They still stick their heads up and say the same old stuff time to time in the papers and on the Current Affairs shows but it never gets that much traction. Why? Well we have had 15 or so years of uninterrupted growth. The economy is booming and that was before the mining boom hit us 2 years ago. Right now we have a problem with the whole thing getting right out of control due to inflation breaking out.

When protectionism ends there are obvious losers. Got a system where everyone wins? The local car industry was a prime example and it went through a significant restructure. It had become a bit fat and lazy. However a car in australia at that time cost between 2 and 2.5 times what a car in US cost. It generally had less in the way of features also. Today we have a decent sized component industry which manufactures and exports all sorts of bits that go in cars. Toyota and Holden (GM) are exporting cars that was unheard of 20 years ago. In the US you will be familiar with the GTO that GM brought in from Australia. That was a real world effort it's DNA came from Opel in Europe the Drivetrain was pure Chevy and the body was a bit of brainstorming by local engineers who managed to hide it from management until it was real enough to show them.

So there are winners and losers in free trade if you are protected you will lose benefits that you have over everyone else. If you are not protected you will gain some benefits like cheaper cars.

Stephen
 
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I guess the difference is after 30 or 40 years of completely unprotected free trade, we've gone from #1 in the world industrially, to being in the entry stages of a depression that's gonna make the 1930's seem like a sunday picnic....I'd tend to doubt that when australia opened it's borders, you weren't competing with several BILLION chinese being paid slave wages, and working in sub-human conditions.... massive factory closures, unemployment rates that are already skyrocketing, etc..... I mean, really, between NYC and the greater LA metro area, we already have more people than your whole country, and then add in the 20 mil or so illegals that have invaded in the last few years.....I'm glad the market opening up worked out for you guys in AU (I have a soft spot in my heart for ya being that you guys have always been staunch allies of ours, and I'm an ex- Navy man), but really, comparing your economy to ours isn't exactly apples to apples......
 
I guess the difference is after 30 or 40 years of completely unprotected free trade, we've gone from #1 in the world industrially, to being in the entry stages of a depression that's gonna make the 1930's seem like a sunday picnic....I'd tend to doubt that when australia opened it's borders, you weren't competing with several BILLION chinese being paid slave wages, and working in sub-human conditions.... massive factory closures, unemployment rates that are already skyrocketing, etc..... I mean, really, between NYC and the greater LA metro area, we already have more people than your whole country, and then add in the 20 mil or so illegals that have invaded in the last few years.....I'm glad the market opening up worked out for you guys in AU (I have a soft spot in my heart for ya being that you guys have always been staunch allies of ours, and I'm an ex- Navy man), but really, comparing your economy to ours isn't exactly apples to apples......

Cheers Ironhead.

No doubt, LA and New York both on their own have more people than Australia. The Claifornian economy is bigger than the Australian economy, BUT the principal applies. Rent seekers do well from protectionism but the rest of the country pays.

The US is still the #1 economy in the world significantly bigger than Japan at #2.

If you end protectionism you will hurt the rent seekers greatly but benefit the whole country. The rent seekers will moan that the world is ending and the rest won't notice much difference however over time the rest will be much better off and the rent seekers will either be gone or learn how to manage in a competitive economy.

It's a bloody business for sure but in today's globalised world being competitive is the only protection you have or anyone can afford.

Stephen
 
I agree. we NEED to end protectionism.

The PROBLEM is we're doing it TOO FAST! WE'RE HOSING OURSELVES! All the people counting on pentions are getting hosed by companies getting hosed by the end of protectionism. We have a LOT of problems simply due to opening our borders. We're NEVER going to be able to compete with the third world in terms of our labor, and costs to produce things. The rest of the world benifits while we get LUTED by the INSTANT free trade craze! It was STUPID to do this too SO FAST! We're headed for DISASTER, we depended on protectionism TOO LONG to allow free trade as fast as we have, ESPECIALLY WITH CHINA. This NEEDED to be thought out, have been SLOWLY initiated, while the rest of the world did things to catch up with the US. So, now we get to enjoy the resulting DEPRESSION, and watch our country turn into the third world! There's just NO WAY this can work, we're going to have a bunch of college grads competing for non-existant jobs. The jobs that are out there will be so low paying compared to the SKYROCKETING cost of living. At least the inflated costs of housing are coming down (allthough my mom is going to lose her butt on this house). Let's watch all our jobs go over seas, try to sell things to people with no jobs, and watch all the remaining jobs get filled by imigrants willing to work for PEANUTS!!! That's EXACTLY WHAT"S HAPPENING!!! More work, less pay, higher cost of living. We get to see what the thirld world has been dealing with, sounds like a GREAT IDEA!!! Thanks to all that supported NAFTA, and the other things that have contributed to the DEATH of the USA!!! If we didn't have china, and mexico to compete with, we'd be where Australia was when they ended their protectionist BS. We waited TOO LONG, now we're paying DEARLY!
 
My point....

was absolutely (!!!!) not to dump on NS boat builders...

the point was that there is ALREADY - has HAS been a law on the books related to US commercial industry - US sourcing.

My point is that by ENFORCING an OLD LAW... that there are 1000's of US people being hired to build US ships - to be used in US commerce. The laws are OLD - and it was ALL ABOUT selective NONENFORCEMENT of the US laws that led to our shipyards having problems for so many years.

I sure do think the Jones Act could use an overhaul.. for sure, NS boat builders need an even break.

I think A TREMENDOUS amount of the US trade problem could be addressed by ENFORCING current US law. Not a bad thing - for any country, or manufacturer anywhere, either....

Let me explain that.. If you are a dairy or leather supplier out of New Zealand, you don't want your competitive postion to export to the US - UNDERMINED by US officials who IGNORE that laws on the books - thus giving your POTENTIAL competitor a unfair advantage. You, as a NZ exporter - want the rules YOU play by - to be enforced on all.. that is what what fair play is about...

--jr
 
I am not going to argue US law and so on because I don't think I have much right to tell the US what it should or shouldn't do so far as US domestic policy goes. If I was a US citizen that would be different but I am not.

Ending protectionism here caused exactly the same grief but people were able to get past it and move on. If I were to bet on it I would say the US will as well. For sure the rules have changed and playing the game will be different no good bringing your tennis racket to a football game is there?

History has proved time and again the ability of the United States and it's enterprising spirit to move on to bigger and better things even if it is knocked down and has to pick itself up again. US become third world? I seriously doubt a proud smart and resourceful people such as The Americans will let that happen.

An example is the Japanese. They have been a high wage country for many years now, but how much stuff is made there and successfully exported? Tons. They don't do cheap junk like they did in the 1950's although even then they were exporting stuff like the Nikon camera that GI's found out about and brought home. It's like a German Camera shoots as good or better and cost a motza less they told everyone at home. For sure Korea was a real free kick for Japan getting it's message out there about it's ability to produce but they had to do the stuff in the first place.

I suppose it is 10 years ago now they had the "super yen" crisis. Really high value on the yen and that's bad news when you must export to survive. Every grade one there is shown a picture of the world and how big it is and how small Japan is and told we have nothing here except what we can make. We must buy product from the world and increase it's value so we can sell it back to them. If we do not we will not survive.

A point that is being missed is that with the industrialisation of China and India and this was our great fear in the 80's that everything would be made in China and there would be no work for us here. The point being missed is that the more they make and sell the more they will want to buy. You think Joe Average in Beijing wants to work like a dog and not have something to show for it. You guys should be thinking less about protecting your market and more about raiding theirs. A big ask for sure but they have lots of US dollars and for the Chinese Business is a game they love, making money is a game they love. Find a Chinese you can trade with and let him sell your stuff to them. Mind you always watch your back because he will be your friend to your face but cheerfully stab your back when you aren't watching. They say "the only interest is self interest"

Stephen
 
Junkyard,

Hey, the US buck ain't worth a damn anywhere in the world, except China. Every other country in the world is gaining on it. China says they will hold it to "about" 8 yuan to the dollar.

I don't really know if that is bad for us, or what is bad for us is that the British pound has gone up 50%, and the EURO has gone up 50%, and Canada and Australia and damned near everybody in the world.

The dollar sucks, see 960 buck gold and 20 buck silver and 100+ buck oil.

Dollar ain't worth a plugged nickle.

Cheers,

George
 
Okay, how about we invoke the equal protection clause of the Constitution along with enforcing the Jones Act ?

In other words, when the next boat docks carrying 8 million pounds of Chilean Salmon, it should be inspected to verify that its of US construction. If not, sieze and auction the cargo and let the owners of the ship have first option of bidding on the ship if they'd like to have it back. After all, the ship's actions would surely meet the definition of "engaging in commerce within US waters" else they'd never make it to a US port.


Wait a minute....How dare I suggest interfering with the holy mantra of international trade or even entertain passing blasphemous thoughts of messing with the Walton family's revenue stream.

Is it just me, or does anyone else notice that this collection of pimps, whores, and general maggots we've got running this country now not only salivates at the thought of additional greasing of the palms of the wealthy and the mega-corporations, but also seems to be intent on dredging up and using any law they can to hammer on the small business owner? Not only do they support the idea of making the rich richer, they also actively engage in supressing any potential domestic competition that might eventually grow and nibble into the easy profits of the rich.

For another example of screwy US maritime law that goes against the best interests of the citizens, consider the following... You want to operate a passenger ship between Miami and Key West. You figure that's about the same thing the cruise lines are doing, except that you'll operate on a daily basis between the two ports and your customers will have the choice of how many days they'll stay in Key West before returning.

Sorry, but that ain't nothing at all like operating a cruise ship. According to law, you're transporting passengers between US ports, and when your ship pulls away from the dock leaving those passengers behind, you're subject to a completely different set of rules. Your ship has to be of US registry whereas the cruise ships can be registered in any third world shithole on the globe that's the cheapest and most lax in regulations.

The Jones Act also comes into play, in that your ship has to be US built since you're engaging in commerce within US waters. The cruise line can buy its ships from any source, anywhere in the world. Your operations will be subject to compliance costs related to passenger safety and other issues that'll make parts of your operating costs orders of magnitude higher than the cruise lines. There'll be an army of government goons handy to make sure you comply, while the cruise lines can get by with shoveling the bullshit to their customers about their own safety consciousness and preparedness. Then, as has happened a few times in the not too distant past, they'll demonstrate it was all bullshit when something like an onboard fire happens and their response is a disorganized joke that would embarass the Keystone Cops.

I'm not offering any opinion on which of the above sets of rules should apply, but rather just pointing out the vast differences in regulations and costs for two businesses doing essentially the same thing in the same waters. One is American by definition, and gets screwed by that definition. The other is international by definition, even though its assets may be wholly US owned. Because its defined as international, it can operate largely as it damn well pleases, so long as it doesn't leave anyone overnight at another US port unless the ship itself is docked there, and so long as it ultimately returns the passengers to the same port where they originally boarded.

Only in the USA could you find one of these operations considered transportation and the other 'not transportation'.
 
yep, that's EXACTLY MY POINT!!!

Junkyard,

Hey, the US buck ain't worth a damn anywhere in the world, except China. Every other country in the world is gaining on it. China says they will hold it to "about" 8 yuan to the dollar.

I don't really know if that is bad for us, or what is bad for us is that the British pound has gone up 50%, and the EURO has gone up 50%, and Canada and Australia and damned near everybody in the world.

The dollar sucks, see 960 buck gold and 20 buck silver and 100+ buck oil.

Dollar ain't worth a plugged nickle.

Cheers,

George

We watch the rest of the world TAKE what uesd to be ours! China's $$$ might not be gaining on the US $$$, but, their cost of living is going DOWN, their pay is going up, and they're pay is going UP!!! They're going to own us before too long.

Nafta (Shafta), and free trade are GREAT for EVERYBODY but us! We get to bend over and smile like donuts! At least the UK, and Canada get HEALTH CARE! Every time I go to the doctor, I play CATCHUP for a couple months! In the mean time, oil prices SKYROCKET, Unemployment goes out of control, and the government does EVERYTHING IT POSSIBLY CAN to make things worse. The WHOLE WORLD sees what kind of STUPIDITY goes on here EXCEPT for our own people. I just don't see ANYTHING good in the future for the US.

The falling dollar is the DIRECT RESULT of this free trade CRAP! It's NOT FREE, it costs the US PLENTY! I PERSONALLY watched the almost the ENTIRE auto industry VACATE michagan, and move ANYWHERE but the USA. This state has one of the highest in the nation. Jobs are so scarce around here, McDonalds is actally NOT HRING for once! The same people have been there for MONTHS! It's gotten to the point where you're LUCKY to get a http://http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mc+Job !!!
 
Just think about this.

You make a widget for $!00 USD. China makes it for $50. USD goes through the floor so instead of 8 Yuan you get 4 to one USD. China still makes the widget for the old $100 USD which used to be 800 Yuan. Exchange rates though mean that to get the same price they now get is 400 Yuan. To keep the price profit ratio they used to have they must in simple termes get the price up to $100 USD. That is the only way they can keep their 800 Yuan. Their price has doubled! Back in the good old US you are still asking $100 USD after all all that has changed is the paper value of the currency. So you are asking 400 Yuan instead of 800! OMG Chinese undercut by US suppliers paying bucketloads more for wages insurance everything.

If your exchange values it gives exporters a huge leg up. Of course the more successfully they export the more they will drive the exchange rate up, so it all evens out.

You buggers are not showing much fighting spirit right now I have to say. Usually you watch a good man when he is down because he will come back at you harder than ever suck your eyeballs out bang you up the butt and then kick the corpse when he is finished but you Yanks are just lying down showing no fight at all and blaming anyone you can. Hell if you were special forces terminating enemy operatives and you had run out of bullets you would just jam your old fella in the rotten dogs ear and blow his brains out that way but sheeze you are showing a lack of spirit right now. I thought a great deal more of the US who has inspired the rest of us any time at all that we were trying to get up off the floor.


Too much sooking and screaming for my taste

Stephen
 
Blue Steel, do you have a plan??

Just what would you do if you lived here??? The ONLY thing I could hope to do is spread awareness of what's happening, and HOPE people take it seriously. Even the ones that do feel as helpless as I do. It's getting to the point where there's NOTHING anybody CAN DO about this. I certainly DO NOT see a solution, or I'D DO WHATEVER I COULD to make it happen. At least by voicing my opinion I can get the attention of some others, and HOPE to find those that CAN make a difference, and ACTUALLY CARE!

If you've got a better idea, lets hear it!
 
You know junkyard I could not care one spot if people disagree with me. That is the basis of the democratic notion that the US gave to the world. I do care that we are all able to express our opinions.

So far as doing anything God might be able to call down divine retribution but God is not on my CV last time I looked. Do whatever you do improve your lot and you have added to your family's situation and also to your country.

I get worked up when people say "there is nothing we can do" or "they should do something" well the only one that can do something about your life is you.

We got to see how well socialism worked in the communist countries.

Stephen
 
Junkyard,

Hey, the US buck ain't worth a damn anywhere in the world, except China. Every other country in the world is gaining on it. China says they will hold it to "about" 8 yuan to the dollar.

I don't really know if that is bad for us, or what is bad for us is that the British pound has gone up 50%, and the EURO has gone up 50%, and Canada and Australia and damned near everybody in the world.

The dollar sucks, see 960 buck gold and 20 buck silver and 100+ buck oil.

Dollar ain't worth a plugged nickle.

Cheers,

George

Soon as I read that I thought thats great for the exporters in the US. I just ordered a bunch of new stuff from the states and some bits off ebay US too, and one company shipping some new parts contacted me to apologize for the usps rate on something fairly light and I was welcome to find my own shipping method to reduce it. Even with shipping it was still a screaming deal, I explained to the guy on the phone that with the current exchange rate, you could just about buy a macdonalds extra large meal here for the price translated into euros and to go ahead and ship it anyway. He told me after that since the dollar fell he's been shipping a lot more stuff internationally.
Theres lots of buzz round some forums I am on to buy stuff in the states and have it shipped over. I think most of these products are made in the US too...
If china is keeping the $ artificially high against the yuan, it could be that they want to keep their people from buying in the US, and keep on selling their stuff cheap...
 
The complaint.....

I do not have a problem with people in other countries wanting to make products and export to the US... I think that is a good thing, in general, for all of us....

I DO have a problem with the way that Foreign Exports (and therefore US Imports) are treated different - and subsidized at every stage of the import process - by taxpayer money... In a nutshell, the very people working to earn a living - are being taxed to support the destruction of their jobs.. That ain't right.. A person in any country would say the same thing there - and many have.

Importation of goods and services is supported by taxpayer monies.. For example.. containters come into a US taxpayer financed port. Containers go over US taxpayer subsidized roads - or on taxpayer subsidized railroads. They go to a "tax reduced" distribution center - and on to a store - so there is a COMPLETE loss of tax and revenue at each step of the process.. If you are some company in GA - making lawnmowers - how do you compete with that?

What do you do when your main customer (eg - Walmart) forces your cost down so much that it puts you out of business? (eg; Vlasic and Murray Lawnmower)? In those cases, Walmart used their Market Clout to drive US companies out of business. They used Tax Subsidize Imports to do it. 1000's of US employess lost their jobs.

This is NOT NAFTA - it is NOT fair traded - it is about greed and allowing US tax dollars to put US companies out of business. And that is a very perverse thing....

If you live in NZ, UK, or Australia.. you likely have seen the same thing - or process - at work.

There are ABSOLUTELY a large group of "foreign" companies that design, manufacture, and and support their products in the US - and are doing better than we really deserve - or that UNDERHANDED dealings would allow them to get away with. I have an awesome amout of respect for such companies.

The complaint is what our own government is doing.. and allowing.. and the fact that we DO have laws on the books that address this type of crap.

--jerry
 
dvideo you have only heard one side of the story. That's the one coming coming from union leaders and politicians. They are not the only source of truth.

Sen Obamma is ranting against free trade and then having his staff call Canada and say "it's a political lie". Barrack is lying to your face, so is Hillary.

"Barack Obama has ratcheted up his attacks on NAFTA, but a senior member of his campaign team told a Canadian official not to take his criticisms seriously, CTV News has learned."
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080227/dems_nafta_080227/20080227/

This is NOT NAFTA - it is NOT fair traded - it is about greed and allowing US tax dollars to put US companies out of business. And that is a very perverse thing....

NAFTA stands for North American FREE Trade Agreement not Fair trade. Fair trade is some Starbucks BS program to raise the price of coffee.


NAFTA was right for a ton of reasons. It still is right. All you are hearing is Politicians babbling that they are going to "change" the world and bring back the good old days. The other group you hear is grumpy old men talking about the good old days.

I'm a grumpy old man, but, I realise you can't go back. Consider removing all the cnc machines, welding robots etc and going back to a real worker in all the factories - that's the good old days. Get rid of you computer, the internet etc. Go back to the days of lots of stenographers on manual typewriters.

Do you really want to go back?
 








 
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