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K&T 2HL Universal

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Hello!

I recently acquired this beauty:
IMG_6038 (1).jpg

A 2HL Universal from 1947 I think(serial 44-5580)
Not sure of it's history but it has all dials in millimeter and mostly Swedish signs on it but also some Finnish.

The seller had it powered up and all feeds, speeds, fast travel and such seems to work.
He did recommend changing oil ASAP and fixing some places that are leaking(mostly around the column oil gauge).

Anyhow, my question here is regarding the oil change.
The manual strongly advises flushing the oil out with kerosene, this is however difficult/expensive to get ahold of around here. Is there any other substance I could use?
I've read around and seen people claim to use both gas, diesel and a mix of both to replace kerosene but I didn't want to take a complete shot in the dark on this.

As a second issue, the saddle nut seems to be twisting sideways(rotation in the Z axis/plane) and the saddle itself also has a very slight twist along with this. I suspect the gib isn't tight enough and thus letting the saddle rotate a bit when being pushed in/out by the screw but the nut twisting must be a seperate issue as well?
Both screws holding the gib in seem to be quite stuck and I'm not sure if I dare apply heat to loosen them?

Any tips would be greatly appreciated!
 

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
WHHJR: Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow!

For tonight I drained all the oil, should really do something about the column drain, way too easy to get oil everywhere.
500.jpg

Also fixed an oil gauge that was leaking and beyond dirty..
714DDE52-5075-4753-9C22-BC2FF13BF46E.jpg

Aaaaaand found the reason for the Y-nut moving/twisting when moving the table in Y.
Someone busted a nut by the looks of it, and then made a ghetto-fix that to my untrained eyes looked like it was supposed to be there..
IMG_6100.jpg
 

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
I was planning on running the machine with the diesel for 5 minutes, before draining and putting oil in again. Like the manual says.

Should I move the power feeds as well during this time or only have the main motor running to move the liquid around?

What should I look out for when/if I need to flush a second time? Grit in the liquid or just if it looks real dark?
When emptying yesterday the oil seemed to drain quite well, it was dark but not pitch black and couldn't see any traces of grit/debris.
 

Don Kinzer

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 18, 2002
Location
Portland, OR USA
For tonight I drained all the oil, should really do something about the column drain, way too easy to get oil everywhere.
I thought the same when I went to change the oil in my 2CHL the first time. After draining the oil, I added a nipple and a valve so that the open side of the valve sticks out past the belts. Then, before I drained the flushing kerosene, I temporarily added a PVC street ell to allow the flow to be directed downward into a container. After I finished flushing, I replaced the street ell with a plug as seen in the photo (my apologies for the poor photo quality).
 

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ballen

Titanium
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
The manual strongly advises flushing the oil out with kerosene, this is however difficult/expensive to get ahold of around here. Is there any other substance I could use?

Here in Germany the inexpensive stuff to use for flushing is called "Petroleum". Can you get that up north?
 

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Don Kinzer:
That's a very nice solution!
I ended up putting a lot of rags everywhere and quickly putting a 1" hose over the outlet... Next time I will definitely do like you have done.

Ballen:
I think that might be naphtha? I ended up using diesel and it seems to have worked well.

Put new oil in both tanks and the table/saddle oil compartment.
It definitely did not need the 17-18 liters the manual seemed to indicate, closer to 10-12 liters in total.
But then again, the manual I have for the 2HL also says it doesn't have a power-feed knee, which this does.

Since the only tooling I got with this machine was a horizontal arbor and bunch of discs, I decided to remove the head to check it out.
Just getting the head off was quite the task without a hoist.. Definitely need to come up with a better way for remounting it.
1.jpg

Both overarm supports were firmly stuck inside the machine. Took me about an hour just to get the two friction locks to release. After this a lot of beating with a hammer and wood in between I managed to get some of the rod to stick out...
2.jpg

I made this, not so pretty, gripper. It did however give me a much better grip so I could rotate them whilst trying to get them out instead of just beating at them.
3.jpg

Took a while but now they're both out, cleaned up and lubed!
Don't mind the 3D printed ISO bit... I was testing if I had my measurements right.
4.jpg

Sadly the horizontal arbor that I got isn't at all for this machine. The taper is MUCH bigger than the ISO40 and it's also quite a bit longer than this machine allows for.
WhatsApp Image 2018-08-16 at 19.00.36.jpg

Tomorrow I'll have a go at cleaning up the friction locks and remounting them on the machine along with the vertical head, I received some ISO40 mill bits in the mail so at least I can give it a test with those.
 

ramsay1

Stainless
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
port allen, louisiana usa
My 2hl overarms were stuck so tightly I had to make a press out of channel iron and all thread bolts to force them out.. After soaking in penetrating oil and loosening the lock nuts I managed to force them out.. Ramsay 1:)
 

thermite

Diamond
Sadly the horizontal arbor that I got isn't at all for this machine. The taper is MUCH bigger than the ISO40 and it's also quite a bit longer than this machine allows for.
View attachment 235902

Looks to be be of the BIG B&S tapers. #11 or better? Gone serious hard to find.

There could be someone out there still running a Dinosaur as might appreciate trading sumthin' for it.
 

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
I had an interesting moment today with the mill!

I had the gearbox set to 1400rpm and while drilling, suddenly it threw really black goo(Grease I suspect) that seemed to have flowed through the bottom spindle bearing.
I had previously put in some new grease through the grease socket thingy.
Is this normal behaviour or does it indicate damage?

The bottom bearing also seems to be getting hot, you can feel that the ISO40 cone is quite warm to the touch after you've used it for 10 minutes. Probably 40-50c, you can hold it without burning but it's definitely hot.
Anything I should watch out for here?
 

ramsay1

Stainless
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
port allen, louisiana usa
2hl Universal

I had an interesting moment today with the mill!

I had the gearbox set to 1400rpm and while drilling, suddenly it threw really black goo(Grease I suspect) that seemed to have flowed through the bottom spindle bearing.
I had previously put in some new grease through the grease socket thingy.
Is this normal behaviour or does it indicate damage?

The bottom bearing also seems to be getting hot, you can feel that the ISO40 cone is quite warm to the touch after you've used it for 10 minutes. Probably 40-50c, you can hold it without burning but it's definitely hot.
Anything I should watch out for here?

I have the same vertical head on my 2hl and grease will seep out of the bottom bearing after it is lubricated.. Mine has no seal just a tight fitting bronze bushing at the spindle....As for the bearing heat, you may need to adjust the bearings slightly if you intend to run at high speed for extended periods.. There is a bearing adjustment under the cap on the top of the spindle.. For heavy work at slower speeds, more preload on the bearing, for lighter load at higher speeds, less preload as with most tapered bearings.. That is a good head and it will give excellent performance for a long time if operated properly.. Cheers; Ramsay 1:)
 

ramsay1

Stainless
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
port allen, louisiana usa
You are most welcome sir....The vertical heads I have will warm some with prolonged use.. That is normal.. Just keep lubricated and do not over tighten preload while using at higher speeds and you will be ok.. Ramsay 1:)
 

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
So I've been having loads of fun with this machine, sadly I messed it up yesterday after servicing the entire table and saddle..

But first some updated photos of it! :)

IMG_6788.jpgIMG_6790.jpgIMG_8545.jpg

As I had just gotten it back together, I was checking all the powerfeeds and that they disengaged properly. Guess what, one didn't and I didn't think my procedure through...
Due to this the Y axis went all the way into the back column, you could hear the motor start struggling and eventually something let go with a pretty bad mechanical sound coming from the knee somewhere. This all happened within a second or so, no time to react..

-Regular powerfeed doesn't work but rapid traverse does work.
-The standing shafts(feed is blue and traverse is red?) rotate as they should.
-Yellow shaft into traverse spins and clutch works.
-Green shaft only spins if you pull the traverse clutch. Slowly rotating the motor with machine turned off, you can hear a clunking inside the knee..
IMG_8549.jpg

I've looked at the parts diagram but can't quite understand where the feed gets it's "input power".
I will try to get the front of knee off to see if any damage is visible from there.
 

Hobby Shop

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Location
Michigan
Did someone remove the over limit trip dogs? They’re on all 3 axis that kick out the feed in case the adjustable dogs are removed. You should be able to remove the feed shaft and drive box without taking the front knee apart. Right under the table on the right side is the drive box with the bevel gears and bushings. PM Chucky55, maybe he can point you in the right direction. He recently went through the entire drive on his 2H. I have some parts left from a 2HL part out but none for the drive.
 

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Thanks!
I sent him a message and kept working.
The limit trip dogs are there but one on Y was wrongly adjusted, it wasn't on very hard so it might have moved by itself. I should really have checked before but it's easy to be smart afterwards..

Trying to get it off but it won't budge and I don't want to use more force than needed.
It has started opening up a bit towards the front but the rear is still solidly together.
yDdb8q7.jpg

pdPjxtl.jpg
 

Hobby Shop

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Location
Michigan
Did you remove the bushing cover on the knee (front right with 3 bolts) and pull the spline shaft out the front? After the shaft is removed everything “should” come right off.
 

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
I managed to get the bushing cover off eventually(had to tap a M8 in there so I had something to pull on..) Wasn't aware that the shaft could be pulled straight out, will try that next.

I worked more on the feed and traverse shafts to check the bevel gears.
Quite a lot of screws holding this little plate on ... Got them all eventually.
JhIajeG.jpg

SiNwamW


Looking into the removed lid(where the clutch is) from behind the machine, you can somewhat hint 2 spur gears. One from the lower bevel gear shaft and then another further in into the knee. These also seem alright.
Bevel gears seem fine as well.

Once I get the horizontal splined shaft pulled out, I will still have to try and wiggle the casting around the two vertical splined shafts as these somewhat locking it in place.
 

Mrcrankyface

Plastic
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Alright, digging continues and I'm trying to document as I go. Possibly it could help someone else.
Numbers refer to the spare parts manual.

Same pic as before, but with a better understanding of what happens.
As you pull the rapid clutch handle(36)(not mounted on picture), the clutch(91) tightens and takes power from the yellow rod and pushes it up into purple arrow, somehow overdriving the regular feed, straight into the big splined shaft(29?).
JhIajeG.jpg

Inside the housing.
Red is powerfeed route. This is just a straight shaft(61/63) with a spur gear at the end, nothing fancy. It connects to the big gear(71?) in next picture.
Yellow is rapid route, as you engage clutch, yellow connects to purple and goes through an intermediate spur(7) gear up to the splined shaft(29?).
All these gears are fine which is probably why rapid traverse still works.
IMG_8579.jpg

Lastly(for now), a look with the housing removed. This big gear is what the feed shaft spur gear connects to. This is attached to a long shaft that disappears to the front of the knee.
IMG_8581.jpg

My theory right now is that the regular feed drives from the front and rapid traverse drives the splined shaft from the rear. Just guesswork so far and need to dig deeper to confirm.
 








 
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