What's new
What's new

K&T vertical head bearing flushing-- remove spindle?

Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Hi,

I picked up a K&T universal fixed head for my 205 SA. This is the non-quill type, 50taper spindle, but with an intermediate adjustable "knuckle."

It was on a machine in the AZ desert for some time, and I was concerned that it might have some sand/grit in it.

I've pulled apart the sections, which actually all look pretty good, lots of solidified grease but no sand infiltration.

Now I'm looking at the spindle... I took the back cover off and again there doesn't seem to be any grit that made it into the top bearings. The spindle is stiff but feels like just old grease.

I pumped in new grease, which displaced some of the old, but not very much of it. I removed the rear threaded retainer ring and the roller bearings look good, the old grease seems free of grit (witness marking the retainer rotational position).

However, I pumped grease also into the front / lower spindle bearings, and water was ejected from the spindle nose. So I'm wondering if I should remove the spindle, and if so, how is the bevel gear preload / position set in these heads?

It looks like there are "fitting washers" in the parts diagram on either side of the bevel gear, leading me to believe as long as those go back where they were, the preload should go back together without any particular adjustment.

Thanks,
Phil
 

johnoder

Diamond
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Location
Houston, TX USA
Likely similar to Cinc. Flanged Timken cup sets the position of the input and it is adjusted by the ring nut near column

Spindle position is set by the bottom Timken and adjustment is by ring nut on top

You GOT TO HAVE these positions in order to make the gears happy

As far as tight or loose, that is up to you - how much heat and noise can you stand? If you can't put your hand on it after working it awhile, its too hot - and too tight

Goes without saying that ALL the old "lube" and related trash has to go

Scan 01crop.jpg.
 

hawkfan9

Hot Rolled
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Location
Illinois, USA
When I rebuilt my K&T high speed head for my 2K, I completely washed out the bearings. You'll want to do the same. You'll destroy the bearings, which are very, very, very expensive, without doing a proper cleanup.

I disassembled my head completely. I wasn't taking chances.....
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
Hi,

I picked up a K&T universal fixed head for my 205 SA. This is the non-quill type, 50taper spindle, but with an intermediate adjustable "knuckle."

It was on a machine in the AZ desert for some time, and I was concerned that it might have some sand/grit in it.

I've pulled apart the sections, which actually all look pretty good, lots of solidified grease but no sand infiltration.

Now I'm looking at the spindle... I took the back cover off and again there doesn't seem to be any grit that made it into the top bearings. The spindle is stiff but feels like just old grease.

I pumped in new grease, which displaced some of the old, but not very much of it. I removed the rear threaded retainer ring and the roller bearings look good, the old grease seems free of grit (witness marking the retainer rotational position).

However, I pumped grease also into the front / lower spindle bearings, and water was ejected from the spindle nose. So I'm wondering if I should remove the spindle, and if so, how is the bevel gear preload / position set in these heads?

It looks like there are "fitting washers" in the parts diagram on either side of the bevel gear, leading me to believe as long as those go back where they were, the preload should go back together without any particular adjustment.

Thanks,
Phil

Thats a very fine adjustment to get the bearings set right. Spend some time adjusting. If you haven't set a few precession bearings get someone that has to assist. Read about the subject. Johnoders post says it all. Critical adjustment.
Wear can change resetting them
 

Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
image.jpg

This is the parts diagram. Unfortunately I don’t have as nice a diagram as John’s for the cinci.

Left and right of the bevel gear parts 19 are the “fitting washers”.

Unfortunately it feels crunchy even after greasing heavily (driving out as much old grease as possible) so it has to come apart.
 

dana gear

Hot Rolled
Joined
Feb 27, 2013
Location
Northern califorina, usa
When I rebuilt my K&T high speed head for my 2K, I completely washed out the bearings. You'll want to do the same. You'll destroy the bearings, which are very, very, very expensive, without doing a proper cleanup.

I disassembled my head completely. I wasn't taking chances.....

We purchased a high-speed head from a used machinery dealer some years back, it had not been used in years.
The head was hard packed with a combination of very old grease and oil. We completely dissembled and cleaned the unit, after a VERY thorough cleaning everything went back the same way as it came apart. works great.
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
We purchased a high-speed head from a used machinery dealer some years back, it had not been used in years.
The head was hard packed with a combination of very old grease and oil. We completely dissembled and cleaned the unit, after a VERY thorough cleaning everything went back the same way as it came apart. works great.

I have bought new, Old Stock Bearings that had grease that had turned to a wax consistency. Soak in kerosene for a day and it softens up. Clean and repack.
 
Last edited:

ramsay1

Stainless
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
port allen, louisiana usa
Hello: I have torn down vertical heads that were packed with grease that resembled "Johnson's Paste Wax" after being idle for many years...Be sure to dig and scrub all of the old grease out then pack with new grease of the right consistency....I set the bearings in mine snug for heavy work and a bit looser for light higher speed work...The vertical heads I have worked on are the old style though but I assume the same rules apply to yours.. Cheers; Ramsay 1:)
 

Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Hello: I have torn down vertical heads that were packed with grease that resembled "Johnson's Paste Wax" after being idle for many years...Be sure to dig and scrub all of the old grease out then pack with new grease of the right consistency....I set the bearings in mine snug for heavy work and a bit looser for light higher speed work...The vertical heads I have worked on are the old style though but I assume the same rules apply to yours.. Cheers; Ramsay 1:)

Thanks, indeed I've pulled the spindle section apart now and have a large quantity of paste-wax-consistency grease.

Bearings look in good shape, apart from a bit of staining on the races which I can't feel at all.

New snap rings arrived, so time to go back together.

The non-spindle sections the vertical head drive mechanism feel smoother, so I may wait on cleaning those bearings if they need it.
 

ramsay1

Stainless
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
port allen, louisiana usa
Over time, oils dry up in grease and what is left behind, for the most part, are the thickeners....I have taken old shielded bearings in the past that had rough spots in them and put oil in them to have them smooth out like new... I suspect that the oils had dried up in those as well....Some of the earlier greases had long fiber additives and were a bit thicker I think... Cheers from Louisiana; Ramsay 1:)
 

Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Does anyone know whether the helical bevel gears in these heads were timed from the factory?

Parts manual says they were sold only as pairs. There are measurements/codes scribed on the gears, and some tooth or teeth have X’s scratched on them.

I received the head partially disassembled so not sure of the original gear timing.

Thanks,
Phil
 

ramsay1

Stainless
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
port allen, louisiana usa
Does anyone know whether the helical bevel gears in these heads were timed from the factory?

Parts manual says they were sold only as pairs. There are measurements/codes scribed on the gears, and some tooth or teeth have X’s scratched on them.

I received the head partially disassembled so not sure of the original gear timing.

Thanks,
Phil

Don't know if they were timed .. Probably sold in sets because they were finish lapped together for quiet operation....I have taken the older models down and put them back and never did any timing of the gears.. Cheers; Ramsay 1:)
 

Dan from Oakland

Titanium
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Location
Oakland, CA
If the gears have X's etched on them, line up the tooth and tooth spaces accordingly. During manufacture many spiral bevels, and even straight bevel gear sets were lapped after heat treat and the mating teeth marked accordingly after the lapping process.
 

ramsay1

Stainless
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
port allen, louisiana usa
If the gears have X's etched on them, line up the tooth and tooth spaces accordingly. During manufacture many spiral bevels, and even straight bevel gear sets were lapped after heat treat and the mating teeth marked accordingly after the lapping process.

Never thought of that... Would it work with ratios other than 1:1? Cheers; Ramsay 1:)
 

m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Location
Missouri
Never thought of that... Would it work with ratios other than 1:1? Cheers; Ramsay 1:)

Good Question
There would be a repeating pattern of rotation, but each gear would pretty much make the rounds.:D
Timing gears on an older four-stroke engine realign every other turn, before timing chains came in. Just an example showing a repeating pattern as with any pair of gears.
Add a third gear as in a Perkins diesel and the repeat is 4 hundred and something times. I wanted to double check the timing marks after turning the engine over. I never got to recheck the marks; my arm got tired of turning it over by hand. It did run.

I would say match the gears to the x's if they are marked and let it fly.
 

ramsay1

Stainless
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Location
port allen, louisiana usa
Yep, I remember turning GM diesel engines over checking timing marks when I wore a younger man's clothes... I know that many K&T gears were lapped as I had read that Edward Kearney was a fanatic about noise... I suppose that the noise reduction strategy continued long after his death... Cheers from Louisiana; Ramsay 1:)
 

Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Got the K&T vertical head and parking attachment cleaned/greased/mounted.

k&t vertical.jpg

I cleaned/oiled/deburred/stoned the overarm holes in the mounting bracket. Mounting bracket clamp nuts are loose. The overarms of the mill itself slide nicely, however it is difficult to get them to feed into the vertical head as expected.

It looks like there's about .002-.003" of clearance between the overarm diameter and the ID of the bores for the mounting bracket. The height adjustment of the parking attachment is pretty crude/coarse (3/4" 10tpi threaded rod).

Are there any tricks to make the attach/detach of the head easier? This one is nice because it doesn't require a NMTB50 spindle gear-- rather the spindle dogs drive a plate integral to the vertical head.

On the 205 sa the overarms don't have rack and crank handle, so pushing them forward isn't assisted mechanically.

Maybe I need to dismantle the head (again) and check for a sliding fit of the overarms into the bracket.

Thanks,
Phil
 

Brandenberger

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 19, 2017
Mostly figured out the overarms at least...

I had the vertical head partly on the overarms. Lifting it with the table, I measured the total travel of the vertical head on the overarms as .004". Then centering it within that travel, the overarms moved somewhat more freely and I pushed / twisted them fully into position.

Then lowering the table, and then adjusting the parking attachment threaded rod support to the same midpoint height, hopefully that will make it reasonably repeatable to install/remove.
 








 
Top