Large train derailment in Ohio.

[Trueturning]

Not a bit. And your attempting to diminish the catastrophe for the folks of East Palestine is most unfortunate.


It's weird how I think people shouldn't be poisoned in their own homes.


That's some revisionist history. The changes in efficiency were always secondary to either market demands (Gas Crisis of '73) or a result of the higher control of fuel during combustion required to meet Fed and California emissions laws. And I damn well remember the outcries from the companies about how "impossible" the requirements were. Heh...


If someone is beating someone else, it's not compromise to diminish the beating by half. We've had plenty of examples of some people here cheering on various bad actors in politics, it's not like the country should accept those who would censor or conduct official business with an eye towards enriching themselves. We see the results of that in Russia.

“

The catastrophe in Bhopal was so far beyond the scale of any U.S. rail accident that bringing it up undermines your argument.

“Not a bit. And your attempting to diminish the catastrophe for the folks of East Palestine is most unfortunate.”
I think he makes a perfectly valid point as in Bhopal the death toll was high and the gas effected 500K people. Anyone who wants to check can read here and compare.

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster

 

[jim rozen]

Both the union carbide MIC disaster and the recent spate of rail fuckups in the US share one thing in common: poorly regulated private companies cutting costs and making private citizens bear the costs when things go wrong. Deeply "seeded' or not, the profits they make should be clawed back when ordinary citizens are put at risk. Go ahead and seed that bullshit, make them pay.

 

[Trueturning]

Both the union carbide MIC disaster and the recent spate of rail fuckups in the US share one thing in common: poorly regulated private companies cutting costs and making private citizens bear the costs when things go wrong. Deeply "seeded' or not, the profits they make should be clawed back when ordinary citizens are put at risk. Go ahead and seed that bullshit, make them pay.

I agree Jim they should pay. Too if changes need to be made in regulations or laws it can be done. I saw where the head of NS was before Congress. That is how things go in a process which gets going after something like this.

I hope the effects to the citizens are minimal or have missed hurting people yet there are stories of persons adversely impacted. I suppose we will be following this story for a while.

 

[Bill D]

The thing about the disaster in India was the plant was built in the middle of nowhere so any bad stuff would not affect people outside the plant. They knew there could be a disaster. India allowed the area around to be built up and have 500,00 people and more move in to a dangerous area. I believe part of the agreement when the plant was built was the government would never allow housing nearby.

Used to be a rendering plant on the edge of town. People complained about the stink. It had been built in the middle of nowhere so the stink would not bother people. Not their fault when people built homes instead of farms 100 years latter.
I realize the land became too valuable for farming. Hercules dynamite factory had a lot of land in the San Francisco bay area as eucalyptus forest to contain the blast. in the 1980's they shut down and it experienced explosive growth becoming the fastest growing city in the USA for a few years. Now known as the dynamic city of Hercules.
Bill D

 

[jim rozen]

"That is how things go in a process which gets going after something like this."

Yep, process: "rail owners: here's a bunch of money." "Legislators: great, everything looks just hunky-dory as you've got it now, thanks!"

 

[Scottl]

I think it is obvious that regardless of technical safety features some derailments will happen so perhaps efforts should be concentrated on making tank cars for hazardous materials safer.

In seagoing oil tankers double hulls have reduced the risk of major oil spills.

 

[evil monkey]

Rolling element bearings are pretty good at reducing friction right up until the point where the rollers fail. It is very difficult to detect failing rolling element bearings by heat as an early indicator of failure. Once the rolling set fails, you're in the position of running bare steel-on-steel friction. Typically all lube is gone by the time the rolling elements fail. So head accumulates very quickly and can cause shafts and housing to fail quickly.

Track side hot box protection is notoriously unreliable. Lots of work, research, and trials have been done to improve performance, but they remain unreliable as it is an inherently difficult problem. The bearings are in massive steel structures that can dissipate heat. They are out in the natural environment, so the background fluctuation of temperature is large. (Is it hot or cold out? Is it sunny or cloudy? Is it wet?) The operating state of the train is changing. (Is it loaded or empty? Is it running fast or slow? How long has it been running? For hours at speed, or recently stopped an allowed to cool to ambient?)

This results in the temperature band indicating early bearing failure coinciding with lots of normal operating temperatures. Typically, by the time the temperature is high enough to overcome the background noise of temperature measurement, the bearings are quite close to total failure, and they regularly fail between hotbox detectors.

Another technology is vibration analysis. That is commonly used in factory settings to monitor and detect bearing failures. However in a rail environment, the steel wheel and steel tracks create a very noisy environment, making it very difficult to access the vibration signature of a failing bearing. Much of the work has been in trying to have stationary detection through the rails. The detection works better when the vibration sensor is mounted near the bearing on the housing. This hasn't been done due to cost and complexity. Last I was involved in that was quite a few years ago. The microprocessor technology and IOT networking has come along far enough now that it might be feasible to put standalone systems on each truck to detect bearing failures. It is probably to the point, or getting close to the point where that would be cheaper than the environmental cleanups for hazardous cargo.

I have seen wheels sliding locked up so I am not convinced that would cause a car to derail . We had our own railroad where I worked , engines, cars, roundhouse etc and the older cars with sleeved bearing shad this happen every so often / without derailing the car. Now if the wheel actually fell off the axle that would cause a derail .
I am guessing all rail is welded one piece today if it's not you can tell me where there's rail with joints and angle bars. I have seen railcars walk off the track due to ice build up against the rail . You wouldthink a railcar wouldcrush ice and keep on rolling but I have seen different with cars being moved in the yard. Most of the derailments we had were caused by switches that were stuck , rails out of guage or the truck swivel being worn out causing a derail in a curve usually at a switch track. Back to the welded rail , how's the guage of he rail staying within limits due to expansion and contraction ?

 

[evil monkey]

Hard to imagine?.......I personally witnessed a wheel bearing seizure in a new Mack truck .......the heat from the seized bearings melted the spindle and heated the half shaft inside hot enough to twist off plastically....all in maybe 100 yards....The truck was new ,on its first test run from the depot ,it was stopped for a smoking hub ,the service supervisor decided to turn around and head back ,in the few yards to do a Uturn ,the drive failed when the half shaft twisted off ......the dual wheels then came off as the roller bearings were powdered steel ,and the spindle was completely melted into a lump.

Since we had our own railroad where I was employed for 30 years , round house and shop for repairs. I never saw a wheel bearing cause a derail even with the ancient cars we sometimes pulled coal from the mines with that had sleeve bearing with oil boxes. It may have been a wheel bearing but I have erious doubts that derailed the train . I did read an article about some cars that had been shopped over loose wheels which was a manufacturer defect . I have seen a wheel locked up and the engine was dragging the car with sparks flying and the car didn't derail . Most derails are rail width out of guage, bad frogs in a switch track area a half thrown switch or something foreign that lifts the flange of the wheel above the ball of the rail . With 5 wrecks in a month it's looking like industrial sabatoge or extremely poor maintenance on the part of the railroads

 

[evil monkey]

~~~~~~~~~~Mod Delete - Personal Attack ~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Rob F.]

Looks like Ohio AG is not really trusting the RR to do the right thing....

https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Media/News-Releases/March-2023/AG-Dave-Yost-Sues-Norfolk-Southern-Over-‘Entirely

From the link, much more there:
"Ohio Attorney General Dave Yost filed a 58-count civil lawsuit in federal court today seeking to hold Norfolk Southern financially responsible for the Feb. 3 train derailment in East Palestine that caused the release of over 1 million gallons of hazardous chemicals, “recklessly endangering” both the health of area residents and Ohio’s natural resources.

“Ohio shouldn’t have to bear the tremendous financial burden of Norfolk Southern’s glaring negligence,” AG Yost said. “The fallout from this highly preventable incident may continue for years to come, and there’s still so much we don’t know about the long-term effects on our air, water and soil.”

The company has repeatedly said that it will make the situation right, Yost noted, adding: “This lawsuit will make sure that Norfolk Southern keeps its word.”"

Not sure why link wont work, just copy & paste to address bar.

 

[john.k]

The RRs insurers will be paying,and they will weasel out in any way possible,and a few that can only be thought up by lawyers..........needless to say ,the first trick will be expert opinion that vinyl chloride is in fact beneficial to both residents and the environment.

 

[jim rozen]

Latest: severeal states are attempting to forestall shipment of the contaminated waste from this detailment through or into their borders.

 

[Milland]

Latest: severeal states are attempting to forestall shipment of the contaminated waste from this detailment through or into their borders.

Hard to blame them!

 

[DDoug]

Latest: severeal states are attempting to forestall shipment of the contaminated waste from this detailment through or into their borders.

They changed the plan, now it's heading south to East liverpool's chemical incinerator, EPA says their not equipped to burn it, mayor says he trust's the incinerator people...
Other place is out near Ox, injection well, pretty close to Lake Erie.

 

[Rob F.]

So the EPA says that a real incinerator is not able to burn it but the RR and I forgot who else decided it was fine to burn in a pool on the side of the road?? WTF
Pumping it underground near the lake sounds like another brilliant plan...
I guess they still remember the old saying - The solution to pollution is dilution.

 

[john.k]

My yard backed onto the notorious liquid waste dump......for many years .they didnt even know what was being dumped there...........20c a gallon on tank capacity.........the gate used to ask 'alakli/acid/dont know.?.........that was the waste categories ......when EPA regs came in in other states ,liquid waste was trucked over 1000 miles to dump there ....closed around 1995 ,and within 10 years it was forgotten.....the BCC also have a 2500 acre methane recovery project there ..it provides all the electricty to run the entire BCC sewerage network.

 

[gustafson]

My yard backed onto the notorious liquid waste dump......for many years .they didnt even know what was being dumped there...........20c a gallon on tank capacity.........the gate used to ask 'alakli/acid/dont know.?.........that was the waste categories ......when EPA regs came in in other states ,liquid waste was trucked over 1000 miles to dump there ....closed around 1995 ,and within 10 years it was forgotten.....the BCC also have a 2500 acre methane recovery project there ..it provides all the electricty to run the entire BCC sewerage network.

hope you don't have a well....

 

[DDoug]

My yard backed onto the notorious liquid waste dump......for many years .they didnt even know what was being dumped there...........20c a gallon on tank capacity.........the gate used to ask 'alakli/acid/dont know.?.........that was the waste categories ......when EPA regs came in in other states ,liquid waste was trucked over 1000 miles to dump there ....closed around 1995 ,and within 10 years it was forgotten.....the BCC also have a 2500 acre methane recovery project there ..it provides all the electricty to run the entire BCC sewerage network.

Sounds like the Love Canal without the drums....

 

[john.k]

I bought the place (5 acres) for peanuts because of the waste dump,...used the place for various enterprises over 50 years ,and sold out two years ago for $2m+.............so toxic waste isnt all bad.

 

[john.k]

I actually mentioned the toxic waste dump to the buyer ......only because hes like "how did you ever get the place this cheap"....The previous sales prices come up on Real Estate .com......Obviously the waste dump meant diddly to him,cause he s starting his own there ........he dismantles cars and send the mechanicals to ME,and scraps most of the rest......The times Ive been there ,Im amazed at the prices for car bits ......bit of plastic ..$50 ...