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Late Model Schaublin 102N Values?

cinematechnic

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Location
Nomad, USA (Curr. IL)
I was hoping you guys could help me out with your input.

I own a very nice Schaublin 102N that I've had since 2004. When I visited the Schaublin factory they ran the serial number and told me it was delivered to Hirschmann Co. in 1982.

Since I moved to Los Angeles, the machine has been in climate controlled storage. The plan was to keep it as my "insurance policy" in case the new job didn't work out and I had to set up my own shop again.

I'm currently doing service of very high end movie camera lenses at the company I work for. I'm routinely working on $20k+ prime lenses. I've been telling them for a while that we need to have our own small machine shop. Recently I was told they might consider buying my lathe.

The plus of making this deal would be that I would be the one using the machine. But it would no longer be mine.

Now, I originally did not plan on selling. I'm not sure they are ready for what this machine is worth. With the collapse of the dollar and the Swiss Franc's strength, many of the items I purchased for this machine are worth much more than they cost even just a few years ago.

But I need to get some independent opinions on what the value of my equipment is in the current market in the U.S. I would also be interested to know what the package would sell for in Europe. Obviously if the price was high enough, the shipping would be worth it.

The machine is mostly metric, but I have an inch carriage as well. For the work I do, almost exclusively on European made lenses, metric is preferred.

So, here is a basic description of what I have:

TO 102N-80 Schaublin 102N on Cast Iron Base, W25 sindle (1982) gray, SN 30043x
Bed is in good condition, some wear but grind marks visible over almost entire length. Lathe has 1.5 kW 2-speed motor, clutch and brake system with foot pedals. Paint is in very good condition, electrics have been overhauled. Very clean, no rust anywhere, no old grease or any other "dirty" elements. Waldmann HI-20 worklight.

102-45.000 Screw operated carriage, 3.54 travel, inch (low wear)
102-45.000 Screw operated carriage, 90mm travel, metric (almost no backlash)
105-67.000 Star-wheel drilling tailstock W25 (metric, very good condition)
105-65.000 Tailstock MT-2 (metric, good condition)
105-30.600 Lever operated quick-closing attachment (I have two: one W25, one W20 - I use the W20 drawbar with the W25->W20 adapter)
202-99240 Autotransformer 2.5kVA (lathe has 380V motor but can run off 208V 3Ø or higher)

105-25.069 Pratt Burnerd 150mm 4 jaw independent chuck with W25 spindle (P-B cat no. 1548-16180 purchased as new old stock

Maprox ZW 100mm 3-jaw chuck, mounted on W25 shank
Maprox JF 150mm 6-jaw chuck (new, unmounted)
Maprox JF 100mm 6-jaw chuck (2x, W25 and W12 shanks)
Maprox JF 100mm 8-jaw chuck

Tripan set: 2x 111 toolposts, multiple toolholders including regular, angled, and cut-off holder

Milling attachment, W20, with vertical slide (worn but decent condition could use reconditioning)

Grinding attachment, B8 spindle

Steady rest, fixed roller type (ball bearing)

Collets: Total of about 100 W20 and W25 collets, full metric set in 0.5, most inch sizes in 1/4, 1/8, 1/16th increments, many are new, W25->W20 reduction adapter, spindle centers, many collet closers and step chucks

Many other small and hard to find accessories that I can't list at the moment. The results of years spent lurking on eBay when it was good, and two tool hunting expeditions in Switzerland.

I would really appreciate getting some input on what the package is worth, and if anyone knows of any recent sales of similar machines.

Thanks in advance!
 

cinematechnic

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Location
Nomad, USA (Curr. IL)
Picture of the SV 102N

I know it helps to have a picture, so here is one where I have both the MT2 and Starwheel tailstocks mounted. The steady rest can also be seen laying below the bed. No toolpost is mounted on the carriage.

I forgot to mention in my previous post: The paint on the machine is original.
 

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Milacron

Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
In the past 11 years there are only two 102N with cast base "comps" in this country that I am aware of, and they both were the slighly more elaborate versions with variable speed and backgear headstock. Selling prices from $6,200 to $7,500 but with minimal tooling and not as good condition as yours.

My guess would be yours as it sits with accessories should be worth $14,000 here, but Luthy in Switzerland would probably want the equivalent of $22,000. But if you put it on USA eBay starting at 99 cents with no reserve I suspect you'd be lucky to crack $9,500.
 

MyrtleLake

Stainless
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Location
Chicago, IL
I expect the hardest part of the valuation to be this: if sold individually, that collection would be worth at least twice---if not far more---than if it was sold as one unit. I think it will be extremely subjective and whimsical to offer an appraisal of the latter.

[EDIT] Whoops. Milacron posted while I was writing. Good figures to get a feel, but an objective valuation with any accuracy is, IMO, impossible here.
 

Milacron

Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
Re accesssories seperately... Luthy quoted me aprox $1,800 just a few weeks ago for a 102 one speed starwheel tailstock. But seeing as yours is the more modern 102N version, they would want more for yours...but how much more I can't say.

But here again, if you put that tailstock on eBay I suspect you'd be lucky to get $800 for it. (and I would probably be the high bidder ;) ) Luthy would probably want $2,500 for the metric compound (or "carriage" as you call it), but going rate here for nice shiney low backlash one...$450 for inch compound...maybe less for metric. Ironically, the 70 compounds are worth more.
 

MyrtleLake

Stainless
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Location
Chicago, IL
I disagree with the metric/inch assumption. That inch one for sale right now is not bringing what comparable metric compounds have sold for easily in the last couple years. I am getting the impression that the inch compounds are valued less---not only abroad, but also here in the US.
 

Milacron

Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
I disagree with the metric/inch assumption. That inch one for sale right now is not bringing what comparable metric compounds have sold for easily in the last couple years. I am getting the impression that the inch compounds are valued less---not only abroad, but also here in the US.
You could be right... I was making assumptions based on inch vs metric Deckel FP1 mills. In fact I hope you are right since I have a 102 metric compound I'd like to sell ;)

I recently bought a nice 102 inch compound for $450 but was offered one even nicer (i.e. a little less backlash) for $400 after I commited to the first one.

I would sell the metric one for only $275 but the catch is it has alot of backlash...like 1/3 turn in both axis, and is missing the scale sliding witness mark doo hicky.
 

Milacron

Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
Cine, how are you changing spindle speeds on that thing ? (besides the 2 speed motor) Do you have to remove the left cover, push down a foot pedal and move flat belt by hand deep inside the base ? Speaking of which, isn't there supposed to be a little lever poking out the left base top side where yours has just a rectangular hole ?

Did that lever serve the same purpose as the foot pedal to relieve tension on the flat belt for changing it's position ? Or would it have been used to actually move the belt over so you don't have to open the left cover and reach in by hand ?

Is your steady rest the official "N" type with square edged casting.... or the older style ?

Funny to see mine was not the only one that came with those ridiculously oversized eye bolts in the base :) I removed mine and installed plastic plugs in the threaded holes.
 

cinematechnic

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Location
Nomad, USA (Curr. IL)
Cine, how are you changing spindle speeds on that thing ? (besides the 2 speed motor) Do you have to remove the left cover, push down a foot pedal and move flat belt by hand deep inside the base ?...

My machine has the clutch and brake (operated by one foot pedal, push it down and it disconnects the motor and brakes the spindle), and another foot pedal to lift the motor/brake/clutch/countershaft assembly, removing tension so you can move the flat belt. "Theoretically" you can move the flat belt by just pushing on the pedal and opening the cover on the headstock. But in reality, you usually have to reach in from the big hole in the side (left side big cover off) and push on the belt most of the time.

My machine never had the lever, which I think is for moving the belt. There was just the spindle speed plate held down by aluminum pins. I removed the plate (no longer accurate since I'm running on 60 Hz power) and I never got around to putting a cover on there.

My steady rest is the rounded version with the ball bearing "lunettes". It's actually nicer (IMHO) than the 102N version because it clamps down with a hinged top. It is the same gray color as the lathe.

Actually, mine did not come with the huge eye bolts. I bought those from J.W. Winco in order to move the machine into position. In this photo you can't see that the machine was mounted on custom made aluminum channels with super heavy duty casters. That's how I moved the thing.

Once I got it set up in position I replaced the casters with three Royal machine mounts. I made adapters from the thread of the machine mounts to fit the holes in the mount adapters in the base. I ended up removing the big eye bolts. One of the eye bolt holes was used to attach an aluminum bracket to mount the Waldmann machine light (which is excellent) without having to drill and tap holes in the cast iron base. That didn't sound like fun.

I went completely through the electrics on this machine. It turned out the wiring diagram I had (from David Samways) didn't match, so I made my own diagram, and in the process, I labeled all the wires, disassembled and cleaned the switches, etc.

The motor is a Swiss made 1.5kW, with a special adapter on the spindle nose for the clutch/brake. It was rebuilt by an old Cuban guy in Miami who had done many motors for me. He always loved working on the Swiss motors. He said the windings in those motors were better than anything he had seen.

BTW, this is why I love this forum: I posted very late last night (4 am Pacific time), and already this morning as I'm drinking coffee, I've got eight responses, and its all good info.

If you guys could see the stupidity that takes place on the most popular forum for digital cine camera equipment discussions, you'd know how lucky we are to have practicalmachinist and the people that make it happen.

Thanks again!
 

Milacron

Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
My machine has the clutch and brake (operated by one foot pedal, push it down and it disconnects the motor and brakes the spindle), and another foot pedal to lift the motor/brake/clutch/countershaft assembly, removing tension so you can move the flat belt. "Theoretically" you can move the flat belt by just pushing on the pedal and opening the cover on the headstock. But in reality, you usually have to reach in from the big hole in the side (left side big cover off) and push on the belt most of the time.

My steady rest is the rounded version with the ball bearing "lunettes". It's actually nicer (IMHO) than the 102N version because it clamps down with a hinged top. It is the same gray color as the lathe
OK, I know exactly what you mean...only because I recently bought a cabinet base 70 and it has the same drive apparently. The clutch system is pretty nice, but changing spindle speeds is a bit cumbersome...esp compared to the new machines where you just turn a dial on the integral VFD ! (or Hardinge DV-59 where you just push a button)

Know what you mean about the theoritical moving belt from top too...might work if pedal was adjusted for more belt slack, but I have to reach in the belly and move it over to appropriate step after moving it at the top.

Re the steady rests, I'm pretty sure I remember the 102N catalog page showing both hinged top and non hinged versions.
 

MyrtleLake

Stainless
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Location
Chicago, IL
Yes. There are a number of versions for the 102N style:
105-90.000 is a simple 3-jaw version. It is open on one side with solid bronze fingers.
105-90.100 has a hinge for the top section with 3 solid bronze fingers.
105-90.200 is the simple 3-jaw version with ball bearing fingers. Top finger is spring-activated (listed "self-releasing").

I was actually unaware there was a hinged, rounded style one until you mentioned it. None of my older Schaublin or Habegger literature mentions it.
 

cinematechnic

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 11, 2005
Location
Nomad, USA (Curr. IL)
I'll post more pictures when I get a chance.

I found a lathe similar to mine on Luthy's site:

Machines en stock | LUTHY MACHINES SA

I sent them an e-mail inquiring about the price (in the best French I could muster) so I can get an idea of the market. Are they good about answering e-mail, or are they still old-school?

In comparison to my machine, theirs has the backgear, W20 spindle (I have W25), collet drawers, looks like it has the coolant system, and that rather kluged looking VFD.

Otherwise the two machines are similar, theirs is a bit newer (about 30,000 serial numbers higher), but older than the N-CF version.
 

Milacron

Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
I sent them an e-mail inquiring about the price (in the best French I could muster) so I can get an idea of the market. Are they good about answering e-mail, or are they still old-school?
I write them in English via email and usually get a reply after about two days (in perfect English)

Interesting the VFD on that one...I wonder if they installed a larger motor as well ? I also wonder if Schaublin themselves ever painted machines in those colors during an "interim" period... or went direct from all gray or green to the current light blue/off white color scheme ?
 

trevj

Titanium
Joined
May 17, 2005
Location
Interior British Columbia
As an outsider, looking in, and more than a bit of a Magpie, when it comes to coveting shiny tools! :), as well as liking the idea of having a fallback option, I'd suggest working out a deal whereby you keep and own the lathe, if you can.

Or buy a nice lathe for work, so that if you part ways next week, you are not gonna spend the rest of your life looking for another comparable machine.

Unless you really want to be rid of it, anyways.

Something readily available, like a Hardinge HLVH, or a clone thereof, or if you wanted to stay with Schaublin, there are usually a few available if you have a budget to ship, and the willingness to travel across the country to inspect.

My penny's worth, in any case...

Cheers
Trev
 

MyrtleLake

Stainless
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Location
Chicago, IL
I also wonder if Schaublin themselves ever painted machines in those colors during an "interim" period... or went direct from all gray or green to the current light blue/off white color scheme ?

Apparently, yes. This is the color cover to the current Schaublin accessories catalog:
sv_catalog.jpg

The current brochure for the 102N-CF and 102N-VM-CF instead shows the pale, baby blue on the bases same as cinematechnic's profile image.
 

Milacron

Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 15, 2000
Location
SC, USA
Interesting on the color schemes. So now I wonder what was the pivotable year in that regard ? If one ordered a 102N in 1997 for example, what color would it have arrived it ? :)
 

MyrtleLake

Stainless
Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Location
Chicago, IL
I believe you are making an incorrect assumption. For example, when I bought my new tailstock, I had a choice of two standard colors. I chose the light blue over the white. When I bought my new milling head---I don't know if there was a choice---but it arrived silver hammertone. It is not the same as the white. I'm not so sure you can exactly date or define batches by the color scheme on their manual machines. Probably so on their CNC's, but I know next to nothing on those lines. As far as I can tell, all the conventional machines are individually made-to-order at this point.
 








 
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