Lifting Machine to change leveling pads

[Milacron]

So the answer is no?

Is that all you got?

Surely you can think of something else if you just try.

That sure was a lot of bs just to say no I dont have a forklift

I currently have two forklifts (2005 CAT 15,5000 lb cushion tire propane and Daewoo 5,000 lb cushion electric), five electric pallet jacks from 4K to 6.5K capacity, two 10K lb manual pallet jacks, two standard manual pallet jacks, two GKS 5K toe jacks, one Hlllman 15K toe jack, various Enerpac cylinders and pumps, various GKS machinery skate assemblies, pry bars, Johnson bar, 4K capacity come-a-long, chains, slings, and probably other rigging related items I'm forgetting about. But what does that have to do with any of this really ?

 

[Garwood]

No, it is a design flaw that a hydraulic jack does not have. When I have 6 tons in the air, I don't want to rely on my coordination.

It's not a design flaw it's intentional. You have to manually articulate the rack pawls to lower the load. In order to pull both pawls out simultaneously and drop a load you have to be really fucking stupid. You have to move the lower pawl far back, way past it's normal position and grab the hook on the upper pawl then force the handle down.

I like the quick release feature. I don't use it with machinery, but it sure is handy to release the jack quickly, when say, you're using the jack in a horizontal position.

I guess I'm irritated because you're statements really reflect an ignorance towards the mechanical jacks WHICH ARE CURRENTLY MANUFACTURED AND SOLD. I have used hydraulic and mechanical toe jacks and have used the mechanical jacks in situations requiring FOUR of them to simultaneously raise and then lower a 17K machine 40".

Also, if you don't understand the benefit of the mechanical jack's lowering a set distance, 1/2" and 9/16 for the Simplex and Duff jacks respectively for each click you give it you probably haven't done any serious rigging before.

The forklift statements ring true for me. You can easily lift one side of a very heavy machine tool to skate it or get a larger forklift underneath it with a pretty small lift and the same space or less needed to use a hydraulic toe jack. I think this should be chalked up as forklift operating and rigging skill and really shouldn't be frowned on. Professional riggers make their livings doing things this way. They all do it differently, but some are very talented forklift operators.

I have yet to see a rigger's truck that didn't have mechanical toe jacks in it. I have met plenty that don't rely on hydraulic jacks.

 

[Heavey Metal]

Finally an answer.

I find it hard to believe that out of the whole lot of you someone finally had enough nuts to admit owning one.

 

[Milacron]

Finally an answer.

I find it hard to believe that out of the whole lot of you someone finally had enough nuts to admit owning one.

I doubt it's a matter of "nuts" so much as being mystified why it matters. For the OP's original request there would be nothing better than a hydraulic toe jack or heeled pinch style prybar to serve his purpose.

 

[traditional-tools]

I find it hard to believe that out of the whole lot of you someone finally had enough nuts to admit owning one.

I don't think it's a matter of admitting that any of the folks here own a forklift, as many do. What is more important is knowing how to use it. Trying to slop a gallon of oil on the forks and shoving 3" of fork in a 1" crack is just not the way most would approach the problem. The fact that you have enough "nuts" to admit using it that way says a lot.

 

[Milacron]

I don't think it's a matter of admitting that any of the folks here own a forklift, as many do. What is more important is knowing how to use it. Trying to slop a gallon of oil on the forks and shoving 3" of fork in a 1" crack is just not the way most would approach the problem. The fact that you have enough "nuts" to admit using it that way says a lot.

Well, to be fair I think he was talking about getting a fork in a few inches and tilting it back with a timber under the fork. But in my experience there is rarely room for that with a forklift when machine is in final resting spot and it lacks the control of a proper toe jack. Not to mention the "killing a fly with a sledge hammer" and potential fork bending aspects.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Well that cease-fire lasted as long as the one in Syria. I don't own one because I don't need to own one. The places I work usually have their own and if they don't they can hire or borrow one. I'm very careful around fork lift jockeys, I've had to work with some unbelievably poor operators so I'm very wary, one rash move and it can all end in tears.
Not very long ago a customer of mine took delivery of a very nice little CNC vertical mill they'd bought from the Formula 1 motor racing industry. They couldn't wait while I got there and unloaded the mill on their own with their forklift inspite of the mill having rigging holes in the casting and appropriate bars near to hand plus overhead crane age in every bay. When they lowered the mill down to ground level the fixed part of the mast got caught in the machine and managed to rip the controller off it's mounting, smashing the bracket !


What I have got though is a good collection of installation equipment. Tell me about your precision alignment equipment and I may be impressed. Regards Tyrone.

 

[John Garner]

Tyrone --

This is probably tantamount to blatant hijacking, but I'd love to sit here and listen while you tell any stories about your alignment equipment and how you use it.

John

 

[ewlsey]

It's not a design flaw it's intentional. You have to manually articulate the rack pawls to lower the load. In order to pull both pawls out simultaneously and drop a load you have to be really fucking stupid. You have to move the lower pawl far back, way past it's normal position and grab the hook on the upper pawl then force the handle down.

I like the quick release feature. I don't use it with machinery, but it sure is handy to release the jack quickly, when say, you're using the jack in a horizontal position.

I guess I'm irritated because you're statements really reflect an ignorance towards the mechanical jacks WHICH ARE CURRENTLY MANUFACTURED AND SOLD. I have used hydraulic and mechanical toe jacks and have used the mechanical jacks in situations requiring FOUR of them to simultaneously raise and then lower a 17K machine 40".

Also, if you don't understand the benefit of the mechanical jack's lowering a set distance, 1/2" and 9/16 for the Simplex and Duff jacks respectively for each click you give it you probably haven't done any serious rigging before.

The forklift statements ring true for me. You can easily lift one side of a very heavy machine tool to skate it or get a larger forklift underneath it with a pretty small lift and the same space or less needed to use a hydraulic toe jack. I think this should be chalked up as forklift operating and rigging skill and really shouldn't be frowned on. Professional riggers make their livings doing things this way. They all do it differently, but some are very talented forklift operators.

I have yet to see a rigger's truck that didn't have mechanical toe jacks in it. I have met plenty that don't rely on hydraulic jacks.

I am mystified by your argument. You wager that lowering by exactly 9/16" per "click" makes the railroad jack the best tool for the job? What if you need to lower the load 1/4"?

The railroad jack is clumsy at best. You need a 5ft bar to operate it. What do you do when you don't have room to swing that long bar to actuate the jack?

Sorry, but the quick release is still dangerous, even if I am "really fucking stupid". The very fact that the entire load can be dropped using roughly the same action you would use to raise or lower the jack is a stupid feature. Why not make the quick release a separate lever, or put in a safety catch? It is the same flaw you can find in the mechanical bumper jacks that the 4 wheelers use.

I haven't met all of the riggers in the world, but the two we use have no mechanical jacks to speak of.

 

[Heavey Metal]

I see now why no one mentions the word "forklift"on this forum

But the fact remains who would hire a rigger without one.

Just one weapon in a whole arsenal that includes:toe jacks, conventinal jacks,diaphram jacks,portapowers, wedges,skates, cribbing,air bearings, cranes, slings. stealplate, uhmw, ice................

Now pick you one of them and flame on it,

 

[robmc]

I am mystified by your argument. You wager that lowering by exactly 9/16" per "click" makes the railroad jack the best tool for the job? What if you need to lower the load 1/4"?

The railroad jack is clumsy at best. You need a 5ft bar to operate it. What do you do when you don't have room to swing that long bar to actuate the jack?

Sorry, but the quick release is still dangerous, even if I am "really fucking stupid". The very fact that the entire load can be dropped using roughly the same action you would use to raise or lower the jack is a stupid feature. Why not make the quick release a separate lever, or put in a safety catch? It is the same flaw you can find in the mechanical bumper jacks that the 4 wheelers use.

I haven't met all of the riggers in the world, but the two we use have no mechanical jacks to speak of.

It's not a stupid feature. I told you it is designed for track work. It is not a general purpose jack!!

 

[ewlsey]

It's not a stupid feature. I told you it is designed for track work. It is not a general purpose jack!!

OK. It's made for John Henry types. So why is it being mentioned here? Why is Garwood touting it as the handiest piece of kit in the rigger's equipment list?

 

[Mud]

Well, to be fair I think he was talking about getting a fork in a few inches and tilting it back with a timber under the fork. But in my experience there is rarely room for that with a forklift when machine is in final resting spot and it lacks the control of a proper toe jack. Not to mention the "killing a fly with a sledge hammer" and potential fork bending aspects.

I saw that trick in action live and in person. A crew of demolition guys were clearing steel items out of a building that was coming down. They had a machine of some sort in a pit and shoved the tips of the forks into a likely spot near the floor, put a 4X4 under the forks and tilted the mast back. To pivot the forks over the timber, you have to lower the carriage, so the chain goes slack, then the carriage bearings shift around in the mast tracks and the carriage floats vertically. Tilting farther tilts the forks and carriage backward, the carriage drops in jerks and starts, and the tips of the forks lift the machine, but certainly not smoothly. They dropped whatever it was back into the pit 3 times before they could get something under it and get another bite. Maybe they dropped it because the forks weren't greased?

 

[Milacron]

I see now why no one mentions the word "forklift"on this forum

You couldn't be more wrong. Click General Forum and enter "forklift" at search. 46 pages of posts where someone mentions "forklift". And that doesn't include "fork truck" and "lift truck" mentions. 39 pages in General Archives.

 

[Garwood]

I am mystified by your argument. You wager that lowering by exactly 9/16" per "click" makes the railroad jack the best tool for the job? What if you need to lower the load 1/4"?

The railroad jack is clumsy at best. You need a 5ft bar to operate it. What do you do when you don't have room to swing that long bar to actuate the jack?

Sorry, but the quick release is still dangerous, even if I am "really fucking stupid". The very fact that the entire load can be dropped using roughly the same action you would use to raise or lower the jack is a stupid feature. Why not make the quick release a separate lever, or put in a safety catch? It is the same flaw you can find in the mechanical bumper jacks that the 4 wheelers use.

I haven't met all of the riggers in the world, but the two we use have no mechanical jacks to speak of.

I disagree with most of what you just wrote. You use these jacks in association with cribbing, just like any other jack. If you want to go 1/4" or 7/16" or .003" lower it is not an issue, you use the handle and lower it. How hard is that to understand?

The handles are 1.5" thinwall tubing. This tubing is available in bulk and can be cut to any length necessary, believe it or not. Without a handle at all the jack will lift 2 tons or a little more with hand pressure on the handle socket. The handle I use for most everything is 18" long. The heaviest lifts I have done were around 12K per jack and required a 3' handle to lift or lower easily one handed while operating the pawls with the other. Granted that's only 6 tons and the jacks are rated for 15 ton each, but honestly, I'm not going to lift more than 1/2 of that with one jack unless I absolutely had to, there's just no reason.

These things don't walk on water and maybe they were designed just for railcar use, but they sure don't look like the specific "railroad jacks" I've seen. They look quite universal and are sold as such. If the quick release feature wasn't wanted it might be rocket science to some, but the upper pawl can be removed in short work and the quick release feature disabled.

I own a dozen of them, really because that's more than I'll ever need and I had several mentors and pro riggers tell me how indefensible they are and this advice has proven true for me. I haven't paid more than $50 for one and I only buy the aluminum ones, the iron ones are too damn heavy, but I do have a couple of those too for parts to fix aluminum ones I got that were missing pieces. I have less invested in a dozen mechanical jacks than my one hydraulic toe jack cost me and I stopped buying them awhile ago.

 

[wippin' boy]

I see now why no one mentions the word "forklift"on this forum

But the fact remains who would hire a rigger without one.

Just one weapon in a whole arsenal that includes:toe jacks, conventinal jacks,diaphram jacks,portapowers, wedges,skates, cribbing,air bearings, cranes, slings. stealplate, uhmw, ice................

Now pick you one of them and flame on it,​

your clueless
the argument was never about forklifts
everyone uses forklifts
it was about how to install a leveling pad on a fadal
which you evidently have little experience at.
so go drive your forklift around the parking lot and leave this to people that now how to do it with out tearin' sht up or pissin' money down the drain on equipment you don't need.
hell
your last statement is debate for the opposition, the reason riggers carry all that stuff is because forklifts ain't always the answer
forklifts are for carrying sht
and while we're at it, do you suppose a guy that has a forklift big enough to lift a vmc would be askin' how to do it.
no
he'd do like you
he'd stuff a fork in it bang it around a couple times puttin' it down.
then spend 3 hours getting the thing back in position
like you.
this sight isn't anti-anything other than people talkin sht like they know when they don't.
just because you've watched riggers good enough to do the stuff your suggesting doesn't mean its the easiest best way to do it.
if that was the case we should all quit usin' stairs, we should just jump 5 foot vertical like the guys in the NBA
how about this one
how about i call the worlds greatest rigger (you pick)
and i tell him i want to switch out the leveling pads on a 8 thousand pound mill
what do you suppose he's gonna haul across town, a fckin Taylor,
not,
he's gonna bring a jack and maybe a pry bar and be done before you could unload the forklift


duh!!

 

[surplusjohn]

a handy item to have on hand when doing this kind of work is a set of hardwood wedges. Start with a 4 x 4 HARDWOOD and cut a 20 degree bevel. as you raise the load, inch the wedge in. it makes a good safety.

 

[Heavey Metal]

your clueless
the argument was never about forklifts
everyone uses forklifts
it was about how to install a leveling pad on a fadal
which you evidently have little experience at.
so go drive your forklift around the parking lot and leave this to people that now how to do it with out tearin' sht up or pissin' money down the drain on equipment you don't need.
hell
your last statement is debate for the opposition, the reason riggers carry all that stuff is because forklifts ain't always the answer
forklifts are for carrying sht
and while we're at it, do you suppose a guy that has a forklift big enough to lift a vmc would be askin' how to do it.
no
he'd do like you
he'd stuff a fork in it bang it around a couple times puttin' it down.
then spend 3 hours getting the thing back in position
like you.
this sight isn't anti-anything other than people talkin sht like they know when they don't.
just because you've watched riggers good enough to do the stuff your suggesting doesn't mean its the easiest best way to do it.
if that was the case we should all quit usin' stairs, we should just jump 5 foot vertical like the guys in the NBA
how about this one
how about i call the worlds greatest rigger (you pick)
and i tell him i want to switch out the leveling pads on a 8 thousand pound mill
what do you suppose he's gonna haul across town, a fckin Taylor,
not,
he's gonna bring a jack and maybe a pry bar and be done before you could unload the forklift


duh!!

I shure am glad that you found something in the list to flame on if you need some thing else be sure to ask.

Imho those that brag the most about what the know or have done are trying to cover up there own inner feelings of being failures.

 

[Heavey Metal]

I currently have two forklifts (2005 CAT 15,5000 lb cushion tire propane and Daewoo 5,000 lb cushion electric), five electric pallet jacks from 4K to 6.5K capacity, two 10K lb manual pallet jacks, two standard manual pallet jacks, two GKS 5K toe jacks, one Hlllman 15K toe jack, various Enerpac cylinders and pumps, various GKS machinery skate assemblies, pry bars, Johnson bar, 4K capacity come-a-long, chains, slings, and probably other rigging related items I'm forgetting about. But what does that have to do with any of this really ?

You know dam well that when no one is watching that you will try this( remember acting like a banty rooster when I sugested putting a flatscreen monitor on a cnc control)

Oh and be sure and dont make any sudden turns (wouldn't want to break muds nose now would we)

 

[dgfoster]

a handy item to have on hand when doing this kind of work is a set of hardwood wedges. Start with a 4 x 4 HARDWOOD and cut a 20 degree bevel. as you raise the load, inch the wedge in. it makes a good safety.

This is true. And the wedges are a lot handier to use if they each have a medium-sized eye screwed into the tall end. Then you can use a 1/4" rod with a hook bent in the far end to scoot the wedge in and out or side to side. If it is roughly as long as your prybar or jack handle this is a big help especially when you are working by yourself. Learned this the by tiring experience. BTW, I Do Not own a forklift ;-)