Linley Jig Borer spindle taper collet compatibility question

[LikesOldMachines]

*Apologies if this isn't the correct location - I'm new to this forum* I have two questions regarding Linley jig borers:


1) Can anyone confirm if the Linley "split-from-both-end" style collets of the later MK. 1A machines are the same taper as the Schaublin ESX/ER 25 style collet?

2) Can anyone confirm whether or not the spindle taper of the pre MK. 1A machines will accept the taper of the Schaublin ESX/ER 25 collet?


For context: I'm interested in purchasing a Linley MK. 1A (with dovetails) for the purpose of jig boring and occasional light milling, however, it is unclear from this source http://www.lathes.co.uk/linley/ whether or not the machines that come equipped with the longer split-from-one-end type will accept the later Schaublin style ESX collet. I'm asking because I've seen a couple jig borers for sale with the older style collet that, if it were the case that the taper were the same, I could use the later style collet and manufacture my own nosepiece. If that weren't the case, I guess I would have to wait for an MK. 1A to come up for sale with the later style collets already in hand. I've re-ground spindle tapers for milling machines before, but if they aren't compatible, it might just not be worth my time/effort to convert it.

Attached is a photo showing the old style on the left and the Schaublin ESX style on the right.





Please let me know if you can give me any further insight!

 

[jgestar]

The Linley Mk1A does not take Schaublin ESX collets. That claim at lathes.co.uk is incorrect, unless we consider the phrase Schaublin type ESX to only mean a similar double slit design. I copied the ESX25 dimension image from the current Schaublin catalog. Most importantly, the ESX collet has a 16 degree included angle (it is basically an ER25 collet with a different slit pattern). The Linley collets have a much more acute 22 degree included angle. There is no front angle on the Linley collets.

I have a single 3/16" Linley collet that was in my Mk1A machine when I bought it. The collet is 1.22" long with a 1.062" maximum diameter (D1 = 27mm, L = 31mm). I confirmed the 22 degree angle. Photos of my collet are below. So far, I have not found any other machine collet with the same dimensions as the Linley. DIY or bust.

I have not measured an older Linley/Vernon collet as I have the newer machine. I have seen a claim that B&S #00 screw machine collets will fit. I very much doubt an ER collet will function in the older Linley spindle. There is a full set of old style Linley collets on eBay right now (the seller is rather proud of them). I have never seen the new style collets for sale.

If anyone has new style Linley collets or accessories sitting on a shelf, or knows a source for the collet in the photo, please drop me a message.


Tom




Linley Mark 1A collet - 1.22" long, 1.062" maximum diameter, 22 degree included angle

 

[Jim Christie]

My father had an older Linley that he sold about 1980 when he got a bigger machine.
It used the collets like the Brown & Sharpe #00 but I can't be certain that's what they were.
I have a holder with a #3 MT shank that holds the B&S #00 collets.
The diameter at the straight end is .6875 give or take a couple of tenths as close as I can measure since they are old and no longer round .
I also have some ER16 and ER 20s equivalent to the ESX shown above in the pictures for comparison of the nose angle.
At one time Hardinge had a listing for the B&S collets in their catalogue showing the dimensions .
As I recall there are several models B&S collets that are close in size or at least similar in shape to these so the ones in the Linley may be a little different .
I know where the Linley my father had is located so I may be able to check with the current owner and see if I can confirm what it actually has in it since there were a few collets with the machine when my father had it.
There was a small about 2" boring head with it that has a 1/2" shank that fitted in collet.
The newer style of Linley collet looks somewhat similar to a Ballas Collet that I have seen somewhere once before.
Maybe someone here may know something .

Our History | Somma Tool Company

Somma Tool Company takes pride in over 80+ years of service to the screw machine industry.

www.sommatool.com

balas collet company - Google Search

Jim
P.S.
More Linley info here but still doesn't answer the question about the collets

Linley Brothers Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

 

[L Vanice]

My circa 1941 Hardinge collet catalog does not mention Linley. Bulletin HA-5 is undated, but the price of 5C round collets was $8.75 and it has a ZIP code in the address. Linley takes Hardinge LB collets and they say some Vernon machines also take LB collets. I see a couple collets on eBay marked Hardinge V instead of Hardinge LB.

Hardinge will sell a new one for $360 each (I priced a 1/2" round).

https://shop.hardinge.com/All-Produ...the-Collets/LB-Round-Collet/p/LB-round-collet (Picture below)

I have no idea about the "late" Linley collets.

Larry

 

[LikesOldMachines]

The Linley Mk1A does not take Schaublin ESX collets. That claim at lathes.co.uk is incorrect, unless we consider the phrase Schaublin type ESX to only mean a similar double slit design. I copied the ESX25 dimension image from the current Schaublin catalog. Most importantly, the ESX collet has a 16 degree included angle (it is basically an ER25 collet with a different slit pattern). The Linley collets have a much more acute 22 degree included angle. There is no front angle on the Linley collets.

I have a single 3/16" Linley collet that was in my Mk1A machine when I bought it. The collet is 1.22" long with a 1.062" maximum diameter (D1 = 27mm, L = 31mm). I confirmed the 22 degree angle. Photos of my collet are below. So far, I have not found any other machine collet with the same dimensions as the Linley. DIY or bust.

I have not measured an older Linley/Vernon collet as I have the newer machine. I have seen a claim that B&S #00 screw machine collets will fit. I very much doubt an ER collet will function in the older Linley spindle. There is a full set of old style Linley collets on eBay right now (the seller is rather proud of them). I have never seen the new style collets for sale.

If anyone has new style Linley collets or accessories sitting on a shelf, or knows a source for the collet in the photo, please drop me a message.


Tom

View attachment 390666

View attachment 390667
Linley Mark 1A collet - 1.22" long, 1.062" maximum diameter, 22 degree included angle

jgestar,

Thank you very much for the detailed response - this is unfortunately the answer I didn't want but at least it gives me a clear path forward. I guess I'll just have to wait to stumble upon a Linley Mark 1A equipped with at least a couple of the original split-from-both-end collets...

Do you even think it's possible to re-grind the bore of an earlier model and manufacture a new nosepiece to accommodate modern ER/ESX collets? I've reground bores before to change collets, but it was beyond laborious, and I don't have a Linley spindle in hand to see if it would even be possible.

 

[Jim Christie]

I spoke to my friend who now has the Linley his father bought from my father today.
While it may not help Likes Old Machines this time perhaps ,it might be useful information for someone else later on .
He has several collets that fit it .
Some of them are the Brown and Sharpe 00 with the stepped nose like the ones in my pictures in post #3 and some have the tapered nose like the one posted by Larry Vanice .
He also has another one with no name and a flat nose similar to the one in my post with no name on it .
He said all 3 types appeared to work equally well for him .
He knows where there are some ER / ESX collets so he is going to try a couple of sizes to see how they might fit if the spindle were modified to take them and let me know what he finds out.
Jim

 

[JohnMartin]

I have an older Vernon, and it takes the LB collets. These are as Larry pictured, with the tapered nose. I have found them to be the same as B&S 00B collets.

The LB or B&S 00B collets May still be had from Hardinge if you don’t mind paying their price.

I chose to go with B&S 00 collets instead. These are the same as the LB or 00B collets but with a stepped flat top instead of the taper. You can see them in Jim Christie’s photos. To accommodate them, I made up a new closing nut.

The new closing nut is flat on its bearing surface, and the hole is a bit larger than the collet’s projection. Does this mean that the “high hat” collet does not center as well as the one with the tapered end? I don’t know, and they have always worked fine for me.

As to using a boring head with a 1/2” shank held in a collet, I’ve never been crazy about that. Vernon sold a boring head that had a 1-1/2 x 16 thread that would screw on in place of the collet nut. Seems like a much better way of doing things, and I’ve been looking for one. Anyone have one?

Most small boring heads are threaded 1-1/2 x 18. Close, but no cigar. Will probably make an adapter. There is, after all, nothing about a boring head that demands perfect concentricity.

 

[4GSR]

Find you a old Bridgeport No. 2 boring head and chase the out to 1-1/2-16 thread. Can't find my Flynn catalog, I believe they have a boring head or two that may be a candidate to rethreading to 1-1/2-16 thread.

 

[jgestar]

Do you even think it's possible to re-grind the bore of an earlier model and manufacture a new nosepiece to accommodate modern ER/ESX collets? I've reground bores before to change collets, but it was beyond laborious, and I don't have a Linley spindle in hand to see if it would even be possible.

Possible? Sure. The Linley spindle exterior dimensions didn't change on going from the Mk1 to the Mk1A (image below). Linley ground the interior to fit their new style collets, which are roughly the size of an ER25. So it is possible... That said, replacement Linley spindles are not common - don't eff' it up. I would make an adapter or sleeve to fit ER16 or ER20 collets to the spindle you have.


Linley Mk1A spindle with collet and 1.5"-12 locking nut and washer

To run a Linley as a jig borer, you will need a drill chuck and a small boring head. A full set of collets isn't very useful. Moore provided "collets" with set screws to lock on an end mill's Weldon flat. When an end mill pulls out of a collet, the results are ugly.

Keep in mind, the Linley is a light duty jig borer designed to precisely locate, drill, and bore holes in a 6"x10" area. While it can be used for occasional milling, it is not a primary vertical mill. Unless you specifically need a jig borer, a small milling machine such as a Clausing 8520 or Rockwell 21-100 is a better option.


Tom

 

[jgestar]

Thank you for the confirmation that the B&S #00 collets fit the Linley and Vernon jig borers. The B&S #00 collets might be the best bet for anyone trying to equip a Mk1 Linley or Vernon jig borer. The dimensions are within a thousandth of the LB collet information that L. Vanice posted above (image of the B&S #00 below). If the current Hardinge catalog is to be believed, a new 1/2" B&S #00 is $108. Old B&S #00s purchased off eBay are likely to have been well thrashed before being sold. Old LB collets might still be in good shape.

A drill chuck and a boring head with 1/2" shanks and a new 1/2" collet will have the machine up and running. I agree that hanging a large drill chuck or boring head from a collet is not sound practice. The last Linley catalog showed small drill chucks and a boring head with straight shanks. For heavier work they recommended a dedicated drill chuck and boring head with a taper shank and captive lock nut (catalog image below).


The spindle lock nut on my machine is threaded 1.5"-12. I looked at Jim Christie's links to the Balas collets. The look is similar, but the dimensions don't match the newer Linley collet. The closest thing I've found is a double angle YY collet, which is close, but not close enough.

The image of the new Linley collets in the original post shows a delivery date of 1959. That is a few years before the Linley Mk1A was supposedly marketed. The buyer made gyroscopes and other precision mechanisms, so they may have had a small jig borer in the shop. I wonder which came first, the revised Linley jig borer or another machine that took those same odd collets?


Tom

 

[Rick Hand]

I realize Vernon was only brought up due to similarities but my Vernon will NOT take an LB collet. It takes the collet with the step at the bottom. I bought an LB to try because online literature suggests they might fit some machines. I received one collet with the machine and made more. I mill with mine but I have a larger mill and only use the Vernon for more delicate items requiring light cuts.