Lodge & Shipley and J. Butler & Co. (later The Butler Machine Tool Co. Halifax).

[Peter S]

There is a (1926?) Butler Machine Tool Co. lathe advertised for sale here in Auckland, New Zealand.



Because I haven’t seen a Butler lathe before, I have been looking at the advert photos for the last couple of weeks and thinking that it looks like a decent old machine.

At the same time, I have seen a couple of Lodge & Shipley posts on this forum.

It has slowly dawned on me – Lodge & Shipley and Butler share some features; in fact, they are identical in many ways!

There surely must have been an arrangement between the two companies.

By strange chance, the photos from the NZ Butler advert also appear on Tony’s lathes.co.uk entry for Butler Vintage Lathes:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/butler-lathes/

There is one photo he doesn’t show - the electric motor name plate is dated 1926. I would guess this is the original motor for the lathe.

The carriage looks almost identical to the Lodge & Shipley design of similar era.

The L&S and Butler bed way design look the same.

The tailstocks look the same, that was the first thing I noticed.

However the geared headstock doesn’t look like any L&S design I have seen.

The second Butler lathe (red, cone head) on Tony’s page has the above shared features plus the distinctive L&S threads/feeds gearbox arrangement.

BTW, the Butler in NZ has me scratching my head regarding the screw cutting chart. It seems to offer only 2-8 TPI options. This is very odd as the catalogues offer a much wider range, e.g., 2 – 64 TPI on the 1917 8” centre height model.


For those who don’t know – Butler was a well-known and respected British machine tool maker. In latter years they were known for their reciprocating machines – planers, slotters, shapers, but in early years made a wide range of machine tools, including lathes.

J. Butler & Co was founded in 1868, in 1917 became a founder members of the Associated British Machine Tool Makers and in 1919 became the Butler Machine Tool Co. The Butler name survives today as Asquith Butler.

 

[Peter S]

On the Vintage Machinery website, there is a pdf of Butler machine tools, probably from 1917. The pages have the ABMTM emblem (founded in 1917) and the pre-1919 company name.

J. Butler & Co. - Publication Reprints - Butler General Purpose Lathes | VintageMachinery.org

The General Purpose lathe descriptions read just like those of Lodge & Shipley i.e. chilled/denser/harder way surfaces and the same way design.

The carriage, tailstock, feed/threading gearbox etc. all look the same as L&S.

The cone head models (8”, 10” & 13” centre heights) all have 18 speeds (3 steps on cone, 2 speed backgear and 2 speed countershaft).



The geared head model looks the same as the cone head type, however the geared head itself was quite different to the 1926 Butler (and any L&S?).



This model had 12 speeds. If line shaft driven it had no clutch just a fast and loose pulley with belt shifter. If electric motor driven, there was a friction clutch operated by the same type of long horizontal rod used to work a belt shifter (the NZ Butler has this long rod-operated clutch).

All of these lathes (like the L&S?) seem to have the feeds and threading combined on a single shaft - the leadscrew. The leadscrew has a long keyway for the feed drive.


One particularly striking feature of the gap bed models is the hefty bracket attached to the headstock-end of the carriage. Because of the gap bed, the carriage is not well-supported when machining close to the spindle. Hence the carriage support bracket which bears on a planed surface below the gap!



PM member Diesel Gypsy from Canada has one of these gap bed models with the carriage support bracket.

 

[Andy FitzGibbon]

There may have been an arrangement between the two companies, or possibly Butler just outright copied the successful and popular L&S design. I've seen similar L&S imitations from a Canadian maker, whose name I now can't recall. It was probably easier to get away with doing so in a "foreign land" not under the thumb of US patent protection.

 

[Asquith]

Peter,
Thanks for the well-researched post.

The auxiliary apron support on the gap-bed lathe is interesting. I wonder if that came from Butler or Lodge & Shipley?

You mentioned that the geared headstock doesn’t look like any L&S design you have seen. The cone head lathe, on the other hand (Diesel Gypsy’s photos), does have a distinctive but minor L&S headstock feature – a small latching lever which I think engages the back gear.

Trivia: Butler and L&S had something else in common – James Ryder Butler and William Lodge were both born in Yorkshire in the 1840s and served their time there.

I’ll mention a curious Butler machine that went to NZ. From the Halifax Evening Courier, 10 July 1928:-

'HUGE MACHINE FOR NEW ZEALAND.
Made in a Halifax Workshop.
Visit of the High Commissioner.
An interesting visitor to Halifax, today, was the Hon. Sir C. James Parr, K.C.M.G., High Commissioner for New Zealand, the purpose of his coming being to inspect a huge machine which has been built for the New Zealand Government railways by the Butler Machine Tool Co., Ltd., Halifax. ..... The machine the Butler Co. has built has a total weight of approximately 40 tons, and its title is a "Sixty inch draw-cut shaper." It is a general purpose machine, capable of planing, shaping, boring, milling and drilling. The main stroke bar is steel forging ten inches square, and is bored to carry a five inch boring bar through the centre. The main carriage, which carries the bar, is mounted on a massive column, which in turn slides on a long bed. The work table is 12 ft. square, and carries various smaller tables and jigs for accommodating such pieces as locomotive cylinders. The main driving motor is 15 h.p., and provides numerous speeds. A 7½ h.p. motor on the carriage controls all the quick-power adjustments. The machine is operated from the front, complete with complete electrical controls (by the Metropolitan Vickers Electric Co., Manchester), and the whole carriage is balanced by a counter-weight of 6½ tons, which slides up and down inside the column. The machine, which has 6 ft. of travel, horizontally and vertically, was set in motion for the High Commissioner and the rest of the party of inspection, and keen interest taken in its work.'

 

[Peter S]

Here are some of the Lodge & Shipley photos which aroused my curiosity. They are taken from various PM posts, sorry I haven't recorded the owners names. Brochure page from one of John's posts, thanks.



Here are a couple of L&S lathes seen for sale in New Zealand:

 

[Peter S]

I’ll mention a curious Butler machine that went to NZ.

Asquith,
Very interesting, thanks. I had no idea what that machine could be, but after searching for "draw-cut shaper" one of the first results shows a machine (probably the one your article?) operating at the Hutt Railway Workshops in New Zealand, in 1930.



Note the big square ram sticking out the right hand side of the photo.

The description says Draw-cut shaper machining, working on two X class cylinders at Hutt Railway Workshops, Woburn, 1930. ATLIB 290264. Photo by Percy Godber.

You can view or download a 21-odd MB image here:

File:Draw-cut shaper machining, working on two X class cylinders at Hutt Railway Workshops, Woburn, 1930. ATLIB 290264.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

The X-class were designed and built in NZ from 1909-1915. They were the most powerful locomotives in NZ at the time, four cylinder compounds. The HP cylinders were between the frames, so I think the photo shows two (separate) LP cylinders with their piston valves.

In the 1940's they were converted to four cylinder simple expansion.

Regarding the draw-cut shaper, I recall a friend telling me about a versatile, large Morton draw-cut machine he had seen in the USA. I didn't understand what he meant by the lay-out, but I have now found some info on the Vintage Machinery website. It looks pretty much like the Butler description:

Morton Mfg. Co. - Publication Reprints - Morton 84 in Stoke Horizontal Boring & Shaping Machine, Bulletin #37 | VintageMachinery.org

 

[john.k]

The pic appears to be a horizontal borer ,pure and simple......at left is called a "boring steady" for support of the far end of a long boring bar,and the machine is boring a cylinder ...........There are plenty of pics of draw cut shapers in machine tools books.

 

[Peter S]

The pic appears to be a horizontal borer ,pure and simple......at left is called a "boring steady" for support of the far end of a long boring bar,and the machine is boring a cylinder ...........There are plenty of pics of draw cut shapers in machine tools books.

John,
Click on the two Morton thumbnails above, the descriptions are pretty much the same as the 1928 Butler described in Asquith's post ("Sixty inch draw-cut shaper." It is a general purpose machine, capable of planing, shaping, boring, milling and drilling). Morton description: horizontal boring, drilling, milling machine and draw-cut travelling head planer. Shaping and slotting included.

Here is another Morton advert (1928) from the Vintage Machinery website:



And a draw-cut shaper possibly of the type you have seen in books? This one also from the VM website, it resides at Greenfield Village. It's a Morton with a pleasing array of mechanical complexity.

 

[Asquith]

It does seem odd to combine a horizontal borer with a draw-cut shaper, but Peter is right about the Hutt Railway Workshop machine. The photo above shows the machine ready to shape.

Source, and lots more interesting photos here:-

https://jenikirbyhistory.getarchive.net/amp/topics/hutt+railway+workshops

 

[Peter S]

Asquith,

Good spotting finding the rear view of the big Butler.

It does seem like a versatile machine, but moving those tables around must have slowed things down. Resetting the boring bar steady for each bore, maybe its table as well. Shifting the big box table out of the way for the shaping job. But, NZR was working on a small scale compared to other countries. One machine does all that? We'll take it.

That website in your post wanted money to download the photo, but they are available free elsewhere. I think the originals are held in the NZ National Library and can be viewed on their website, however I couldn't find the high res. downloads.

commons.wikipedia.com seems to have them all (Godber photos) in a range of sizes up to 20+ MB. Using 'Godber' in their search comes up with far too many. 'Godber machine' or 'Godber workshop' brings up a reasonable number.

File:Machine shop, Hutt Railway Workshops, Woburn ATLIB 290272.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

The high resolution photo shows lots of interesting detail in the background. It looks like they are working on a dismantled railway crane over to the right.

 

[Peter S]

possibly Butler just outright copied the successful and popular L&S design.

Andy,

I was thinking L&S might have copied Butler.....





No, you are probably right

I doubt Butler would have made such exact copies of parts without agreement though.

 

[Asquith]

Peter - high res photos - well found.

I don't think the scarecrow to the right of the Kearns horizontal borer would fool the foreman for long.

Railway crane - well-spotted. I was wondering what it was in the low res photo.

Town drilling machine in the foreground, made by Frederick Town & Sons, who, like Butlers, were located in Halifax. Frederick Town was James Butler's first apprentice. In fact he was his only employee initially!

 

[Asquith]

I followed Peter's lead and did a search on Albert Percy Godber on Wikimedia Commons, which brought up hundreds of high resolution photos on a wide variety of subjects.

I apologise for having taken the thread off topic, and I'll just offer a couple of the photos, which show an 1877 Beyer, Peacock & Co wheel lathe in Petone Workshops. The first is worth zooming in to as it shows the setup for machining the crankpin on a crank axle. Not something to relish.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/X_Class_steam_locomotive,_New_Zealand_Railways_no_439,_4-8-2_type,_view_of_the_reducing_radius_of_inside_bearing,_1910._ATLIB_278970.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._of_Petone_Railway_Workshops_ATLIB_274047.png

Peter and I looked at a very similar lathe, same date, at the Parnell Railway Workshops near Auckland.