Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013

[rpseguin]

When you powered up the rpc and heard the fan, how long did you leave it powered up ? Any part of that need to warm up before it becomes live I wonder.

Good question!
I probably had it on for over 12-15 minutes total while fiddling with it.

I will try a few more things tonight.

Thanks!

 

[steve-l]

I'm confused. You bought this lathe from Monarch. Monarch bought L&S and supports their lathes. So why did Monarch not repair this drive before they sent it to you? What was the deal?

 

[rpseguin]

It will be "short rations" for that motor - but not by a lot for the actual WORK.. , and will want around 50 Amps at full-gallop, more-yet if you schlag it at or near locked-rotor!

Overload is harmless. It trips-out electronically, need not blow a fuse.

I don’t anticipate needing full power anytime soon, if ever!
Crack pipe dream: Eventually I will have a bigger shop with better power!

Even so, 7 HP makes plenty of chip, fast enuf, my Cazeneuve nominal 14" X 30" or the typical Webb-Wacheon you are already used to running.. Do the same sport of tasking, expect the same sort of power will be drawn.

That said? I did MOST of the testing of the 514C-16 SSD off a mere fifteen Amp 246 VAC circuit and never tripped the SQ-D "QO" breaker even when I overload faulted the SSD's more sensitive logic.

That was a -16 (Amp, sustained), 6 HP "thermal" DC Drive, exact same control and sensor logic as the lighter 514C-8 or heavier 514C-32.

Could was a 30 or 40 Amp @ 240 VAC will carry all "normal" turning loads, a 50A good enough.

The 1ph garage breaker sub-panel is right nearby with space for suck a breaker.

The AVS was a HOGGER, compared to a 10EE, but your actual USE of it need not be that brutal.

Especially as an AVS has more geared mechanical ratios to assist than the 10EE's mere ONE besides open-belt.

NEW price of a Parker 514C-32 SSD - for reference, if not purchase - should be on a UK discounter's website.

I'll go and do a recce..

First three results as-at 31 August, 2021, lowest price on top. DO check shipping. I've had ZERO issues out of the UK, but we should chat if you go that way.

US Parker distributors could easily be as cheap - they just don't publish their prices as often as UK ones do:

UK based Parker supplier - for all your DC 514C range needs.

UK based Parker supplier - for all your DC 514C range needs.

Parker SSD 514C 32A 4Q 110V/230V/400V 1ph/2ph AC to DC Isolated Signal - DC Drives (1ph/2ph Input)

Not to forget that for single-phase input, you'll need a boost / "drive isolation" transformer of 10 to 15 kVA to get your AC up to no less than 320 VAC.

350 VAC to 380 VAC is "sweet spot" when dragging a larger motor.

415 VAC is about the practical max.

Even though the drive can STAND being run directly off 480-500 VAC, the SCR switching hash will trash the whole local wire plant @ 120 Hz fast-rise pulses, "broadcast".

So the INPUT needs "at least" a high-amp Corcom style filter. An isolation transformer does most of the filtering as a byproduct, no extra charge.

OUTPUT side of the drive:

A 20 MILLI Henry choke smooths the motor very nicely, but the amperage you'd need is impractical for that.

A 20 MICRO Henry choke is smaller, lighter, cheaper for the Amperage it must pass.. and will be good enough to knock the fast-rise SCR switching edges off each of those 120 to the second pulses so as not to stress the load-motor.

You would basically be building an identical, but scaled-up at the 514C-32 DC Drive & transformer version of Everettengr's 514C-16 one for his 5 HP 10EE.

Not that hard, Mark - and other good folk - having gone before us and shared their experience.. "right here, on PM".

Thanks!!

The 514C-32 looks like a good drive and not too pricey.
Looking around for used/refurbs.
I see some inexpensive ones on ebay from China, but will pass on those, if only from a parts/returns issues I can foresee.

I will call Parker. I think there’s a Parker office in Santa Rosa.
Too bad about needing to step up the 1ph AC input. I have a smaller 1ph 240V to 480V, but can’t do 320V-360V high side.
My 1ph is a solid 244V.

 

[rpseguin]

I'm confused. You bought this lathe from Monarch. Monarch bought L&S and supports their lathes. So why did Monarch not repair this drive before they sent it to you? What was the deal?

I was told that there was a problem with the DC drive, so I bought it knowing that.

 

[rpseguin]

So I pulled out my multimeter and verified that there are no blown fuses in the cabinet.

I think I saw the green drive ready LED flicker on for an instant after I turned on the electrical, but that could be wishful thinking on my part, and even if it did, I am not sure that’s actually indicative of anything.

I played with the lathe power switch button on the control panel to no avail.
The power indicator light on the lathe control wouldn’t come on.
The power on instructions in the manual indicate the power switch is a 3 position momentary with left/off momentary and right/on momentary. My power switch feels like a 3 position switch with no momentary.
I will pull this panel off and check the switches and try to trace the wiring

 

[texasgeartrain]

I'm guessing its just the pic you took, and you're trying a bunch of stuff. But I noticed in the pic its not in neutral. Any chance that's a factor ?

 

[rpseguin]

Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013

I'm guessing its just the pic you took, and you're trying a bunch of stuff. But I noticed in the pic its not in neutral. Any chance that's a factor ?

Yeah.
I had it in neutral also, but not sure of all the combinations I’ve tried.
I doubt powering up the drive is interlocked to it being in neutral, but I will be sure to try that next round.

 

[Garwood]

I had a Mazak CNC lathe with a 30HP DC motor and 3 geared speed ranges. It was pretty powerful. For the power it made it sure sucked the pixies though.

My current big CNC lathe is a 2008 Leadwell LTC-30CP. It has a 65KW motor simply cog belted 1:1 with the spindle. It takes the same juice to run that thing as that old 30HP DC Mazak did and the leadwell makes that old DC Mazak seem like a toy, granted, the 80HP motor is the size of small chest freezer hanging off the side of the machine.

I think my plan of attack if your lathe was in my shop would be to retro a 20HP AC motor and drive. I would probably use a Fanuc motor and matching drive from a 90's CNC. I love the brickshithouseness of those setups and the IGBT's are about $300 to replace the entire pack of them if ever needed.

If you have a good electronics guy they can setup ANY drive for single phase input.

 

[rpseguin]

Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013

I pulled off the lathe front control panel to check out the switches.

The estop and on/off switches seem to operate correctly and I was able to verify they rang out in the electrical cabinet.

I traced the output from the on/off switch to the terminal block pictured below and then on to the left two of these of small relays in the cabinet, but haven’t investigated further:

I figured out this must be the coolant pump contactor:

 

[rpseguin]

Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013

I found and replaced a couple of blown 1.5 amp fuses on the GE Valutrol power supply control board.

Do the capacitors in the above picture look ok?

There were 3 other of the same board in the electrical cabinet, some of which had the same fuses blown.

I tried powering up again, but still nothing.

I had my wife turn some of the switches on the lathe control panel while I watched those relays and nothing happens.

It seems like something is going on with the 120VAC control stuff.
I think I am going to disconnect the wires from the low voltage (120VAC 1ph) side of the control transformer and run wall outlet power to try to figure out what’s going on.
I just want to disconnect the control transformer since I see no need to have the control transformer be making 460VAC near where I’m poking around.

I did check before that I was getting about 115VAC out of the low voltage side of the control transformer (blue below)

 

[texasgeartrain]

You might be on to something with those boards and caps. I found a post from 2013 that mentions the fuses and caps. Kind of short and not too many details:

ge dc drive help needed

The fella that wrote it has not been active since 2016, and I don't see an email listed for him.

 

[EmGo]

If they haven't all been scrapped, lots of eighties machines had dc drives of a suitable size. I remember the Westinghouse was better than GE. Gettys is also reliable and robust. If he's not dead, George Miclea in Lake Forest down by LA had a lot of that stuff around. You should be able to find schematics for the Valutrol.

 

[rpseguin]

You might be on to something with those boards and caps. I found a post from 2013 that mentions the fuses and caps. Kind of short and not too many details:

ge dc drive help needed

The fella that wrote it has not been active since 2016, and I don't see an email listed for him.

Thanks!!
I followed up on that thread by posting some pictures that show the drive and board and fuses he talked about, mostly for other people to refer to.

I’m going to look into replacing those caps.

I have 4 of those low voltage power supply boards in total: 1 installed in the drive and 3 that were loose in the electrical cabinet:

Those same fuses were blown on a couple of them.

 

[rpseguin]

Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013

IF.. and there is no compelling reason to do.. you wish to keep an antique as if it were a 1920's Atwater-Kent Radio,

LOL! :-)
No, I figured I would only try the very cursory, easy fixes.
I have no real attachment to this old hulk of a drive other than it is already installed and wired in and I had hopes for a simple fix.

THEN replace 100% of the electrolytic capacitors with brand-new. NEW not "NOS". Not stale stock. Newly MADE.

And not just the ugliest ones. All. 100%. They're f**ked. Always.
And it is where we start, regardless.

Merely a waste of days of your life to begin any other way.

Thanks! Yeah, that makes sense. I know caps have a lifespan.
I would not call myself skilled at soldering…; I can do plumbing soldering (some coming up with bathroom reno looming).

Newer drives don't even use hardly ANY of them.
No longer a need.

Newer drives use dynamically active components where older tech used passive lumped reactances.
Cheaper. Needs less space. Lasts longer.

Only AFTER you have all-new electrolytics do we start hunting-down the other components their demise took out as collateral damage.

This... is why service fees start at around $1,100-$1,500 and go UP. Even for a shop that does a(ny) given PCB regularly and has all the OEM data, plus their own notes accumulated over the life of the drive as the failure modes presented.

Yeah, well I definitely would buy a new DC drive before spending that much on service fees for such an old drive.
I called Parker yesterday and they referred me to distributors.
First distributor didn’t have any Parker 514C-32 drives, next one couldn’t look it up (??).

 

[rpseguin]

If they haven't all been scrapped, lots of eighties machines had dc drives of a suitable size. I remember the Westinghouse was better than GE. Gettys is also reliable and robust. If he's not dead, George Miclea in Lake Forest down by LA had a lot of that stuff around. You should be able to find schematics for the Valutrol.

Thanks!
I’ll have a look.

 

[rpseguin]

So I got hold of an engineer at Parker and he said the 514C is a long defunct product, but he’s going to find a more current drive that matches my motor.

 

[texasgeartrain]

And proper 3-Phase power - or a really good imitation, thereof.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm interested to know about, and some choices of a 3 phase DC drive. And I'd seen you mention of it previous. Why good 3 phase like utility power, the phase perfect, or vs a regular rpc. If you ever get around to it, I'd like to see a thread on it, I'm sure some others would as well.

 

[rpseguin]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm interested to know about, and some choices of a 3 phase DC drive. And I'd seen you mention of it previous. Why good 3 phase like utility power, the phase perfect, or vs a regular rpc. If you ever get around to it, I'd like to see a thread on it, I'm sure some others would as well.

I agree, let’s start a separate thread.
I’d like to learn more as well.
Please go ahead and start said thread.

 

[rpseguin]

Lodge & Shipley AVS 2013

I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm interested to know about, and some choices of a 3 phase DC drive. And I'd seen you mention of it previous. Why good 3 phase like utility power, the phase perfect, or vs a regular rpc. If you ever get around to it, I'd like to see a thread on it, I'm sure some others would as well.

Separate thread on DC drives started here:

DC Drives, Single Phase and 3ph input, RPC

 

[rpseguin]

A goodie skid just arrived from Monarch Lathes / Lodge & Shipley Lathes:

A very nice, hernia-inducing Cushman 4 independent jaw chuck with reversible top jaws.