What's new
What's new

Looking for a Hawe hydraulic valve

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
My FP2NC vertical spindle tool change valve is not working correctly, so I would like to replace it. It actuates by hand (there is a button on top), but not electrically. I probably should remove it and see what the problem is, but I would prefer to have a replacement ready, since at least now the machine is running.

Is the part number in the orange book valid: 6096 04 009321 00, made by Hawe. The type is G3 or G24.

What is involved in removing the valve? Does everything have to come out (pump and all valves)?

Also, I should add, the electrical controls for the valve are the same for horizontal and vertical valves. Both valves are controlled with the same switches (K10 & K12). There are no errors on the console. The buttons work correctly, as verified in horizontal mode.
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Hawe has a US presence..
I had leaky main check valve on my FP3NC, so that the pump would cycle all the time trying to keep the pressure up.. Annoying!

Home | Shop.HAWEUSA.com

They sell through distributors if i remember correctly...think there is one in the valley...Want to say Fresno or Bakersfield.....Its been a long time
The web page has a "distributor portal" that directs you to local source i believe.
Bought a replacement check valve . Folks i got in touch with were quite helpful.
As i recall, the valve manifold can be removed off the top plate leaving the pump itself in the base.
No gaskets, everything has "O" rings. Might wish to replace the "O" rings while you are in there....
Cheers Ross

On Edit:
Be sure you are getting a good signal to the electrical side of the solenoid before you take anything apart....That valve is controlled through the NSV 90 boards.
Your orange book (section 3) defines each of the LEDs for each function. (you will have to translate the functions to find the one for the axis tool change) Should be getting the LED lit when the valve is active.
Sorry i can't be more specific as my machine here at work uses the earlier PC1 that has NSV 80 boards. (Different)

Simple test is to swap the NSV 90 boards and see if that makes any difference.

OK...Looks like the choice for vertical/horizontal selected on the operators panel toggles LED # 6 & 7 on X74. If that is not happening the valve will never get any signal to open.
Believe #6 is for the horizontal.
 

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
The vertical tool change valve is getting a signal. When it stops working, I just push the rubber-covered button on the side of the valve, then it starts working again. Works for a month or three with electrical signals, same as horizontal. Then it stops working and I push the button again. So it has to be the valve. Probably disassembly and cleaning would fix it, but I would like to have a spare.

The orange book shows y5 as horizontal and y6 as vertical (dwg 6/1 & 6/2). Also tool change enable is dwg 7/4. Dwg 20 shows Y5 as the rightmost valve and Y6 next to it.

Here is a copy of 6/1 & 6/2, because I do not understand some of the German symbols, could use some help with interpretation:

IMG_0290.jpg

K12 and K10 are simple contactors, either on or off, correct? So when K10 is on, 72-71 contact is broken, as is 82-81. When K12 is on, 43 is connected to 44 and 23 is connected to 24.

Should be obvious, but I don't see how y5 and y6 are individually controlled. i.e. both are controlled by K10 and K12, but shouldn't both be on or both off (according to the logic shown above)? How does the control turn them on individually? Obviously there is something about this diagram I don't understand.
 
Last edited:

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Dave:
Think what you don't see here is that the control of the actual input to the valves in this case comes through that little triangle at the top of the print.
That symbol as i understand it is a "Gate" or logic switch.

The print is drawn to show that the 24V output comes through the SPS or PCII .
The orange book really does not show the logic diagrams for the control , so you are provided that the power is supplied through the PCII
Not sure i can follow all the inputs that enable that gate...Not sure all that info is provided.

The relays shown are there as other protections such as spindle running power on etc., don't think they are switching the Horizontal /Vertical tool change.
The real on/off for that valve comes from the boards in the PC and are controlled by logic and push buttons at the operators station.
The actual output is shown by LED's 6 & 7 on X74 (NE 90) board.

Cheers Ross
 

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
That makes sense, Ross. It is not a wiring diagram convention I have seen before. I will look for the LEDs next time I am doing a tool change.
 

ballen

Titanium
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
Dave, just guessing here, but could it be that the Kxx "switches" are relay contacts? In which case somewhere else on the print you will find the relay coil which controls them. If so it will be labeled K10 or K12 but with a different symbol, and have two wires to energize the coil. Cheers, Bruce
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Bruce:
You of course are correct but the question as i read it was how does the control differentiate between the horizontal or vertical tool change....
As the print is drawn and Dave (rimcanyon) points out the condition of the two relays shown in the hydraulic valve circuit don't have anything to do with which valve is selected....

As i point out above that choice is made further up the circuit in the PC (SPS) and is a combination of logic inputs that allow the 24 VDC to be applied to the correct valve.
The output of that logic is condensed for use in the wiring diagram and shown as the triangle symbol.

There is a full section on the "orange book" that deals with the SPS. I don't understand much of what is there...not fluent enough in German and their symbols there
to interpret all that is shown.

Cheers Ross
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
That makes sense, Ross. It is not a wiring diagram convention I have seen before. I will look for the LEDs next time I am doing a tool change.



Dave:
If you are consistently getting 24VDC at the coil when the Vertical tool change is selected, then no need to look at the LED's. They are just an easy yay to tell if the logic is working as it should without needing
a meter.

Cheers Ross
 

Colt45

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
SLC, UT
Dave, just guessing here, but could it be that the Kxx "switches" are relay contacts? In which case somewhere else on the print you will find the relay coil which controls them. If so it will be labeled K10 or K12 but with a different symbol, and have two wires to energize the coil. Cheers, Bruce

Bruce is correct- the Kxx switches in the drawing shown are relay contacts. The coils are shown on a different sheet(s), labeled "SPS-ausgange" , those detail the 24volt control circuits and the path to/from the NPP90 boards. The SPS drawings are fairly simple, it's mostly relays/contacts, diodes, wire/cable numbers, and connector numbers. Definitely easier to understand if one knows some German.
 

ballen

Titanium
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
Hi Dave,

I just looked more carefully and understand your question better. Yes, the K10 and K12 contacts are behaving identically in the horizontal (H) and vertical (V) circuits. The triangle at the top just means a buffer or driver to provide current, and it's doing that identically for both H and V. So since they can be controlled individually, it must be that the difference is from those strange components at the bottom.

Let's look at the H circuit on the left.

Y5 is a horizontal box with a slanted line, connected via a dashed line to a pair of skinny vertical triangles. I'm pretty sure that the horizontal box with the slanted line means a solenoid, and that the dashed line means "hand-operated". I think those might indicate a finger-and solenoid-operated hydraulic valve, presumably to control the cylinder. Not sure if the skinny vertical triangles are the pushbutton or the valve. I suspect it means "valve" but am not sure.

Then E14 would be the hydraulically-controlled piston that holds and releases the tool. The question is, why does that have an electrical connection? And, if there are no other electrical connections to these components, how can the H and V be operated separately?

In your shoes, I would find the drawing which shows how the K10 and K12 relay coils are being controlled. It could be that the sheet we are looking at now has a cut-and-paste error, and K10/12 are NOT the same relay in both H and V circuits. This will be obvious from the drawing which shows how their coils are controlled.

Ross, Peter, do either of you know what the Y5 and E14 symbols stand for? Does the cylinder that releases the spring pressure on the tool clamping have electrical connections? If so, what do those do?

Cheers,
Bruce
 

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
Bruce, I always enjoy your posts, they make me think! Not that thinking power increases with age... I had looked at E14/E15. The orange book describes them as Entstorglied VDR, which it translates as VDR suppressor device. It is made by Murr and has part number 6401 04 000087 00. So I figured they were ferrite donuts or something equivalent, but I am just guessing.

The diagram that shows K10/K12 is below (5/3 and 5/4). It has a table of NO and NC contacts, but surprisingly to me, the contacts of interest in tool change are not listed. Also, there is a device adjacent to both K10 and K12 that is not listed with a name, the upside down triangle with a line at the top. However, the junction just above the triangle is labeled V6:7 and V6:8. V6 is described as an "erasing diode".

IMG_0317.jpg





+
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Bruce:
The items on the print labeled Y5 and Y6 are the operating electromagnet valves. In normal operation the tool change is done using switches on the operators panel .
The valves are opened to gate hydraulic pressure to the chosen spindle.hydraulic cylinder
Those electromagnetic valves also have a hand operated option (plunger) that allow the valves to be operated manually if desired.

On the FP-NC's the hydraulic pump is powered all the time...It builds pressure to a threshold value (about 2300 psi) at which point a pressure valve shuts the hydraulic pump off.

When ever the pressure falls below the low value setting the pump restarts and builds then shuts off.When a tool un-clamp is called the electromagnet valve opens and fluid pressurizes the tool "unclamp" cylinder and releases the tool.

Components E14 and E15 are labeled as "Suppressors" and are there to help control electrical spiked when energizing the electromagnetic valves.....

As i wrote above.......................................The selection of which valve is opened is done by the composite output of those triangle symbols at the top of the print......The symbol is related to the logic on other PC boards in the control....What you are looking at is the wiring diagram, and does not expand the logic that becomes the output at the triangle....They are just telling you that the control for the valves comes from a combination of other sources , and being that the combination is board level logic they don't provide any further details of how the output gets out of the triangle...That info is detailed elsewhere.
You know which output each triangle is providing bu its wire connector number ...That being X52-2 and X52-3...That connector is on a board in the PC.(NE 90)..same board that also has indicator LED's that illuminate when either horizontal or vertical tool change is selected.....


If operating normally and powered up normally, everything below the triangles electrically to the electromagnetic valves is just a solid wire....Its all in the logic gates that the triangles represent.
Cheers Ross
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Dave:
The purpose of K10 in the tool change circuit is to prevent opening the tool when the spindle is rotating...K10 is the brake on the main drive motor, and it is energized when ever the spindle is in motion. (power =brake release) Its a safety.


K12 is active when you call for a tool change.....Press the white tool change button and the logic at the output of the triangle X 52:1 closes K 12 and allows selection of which ever tool/spindle you wish.
But neither of these relays select the specific spindle.

Cheers Ross
 

ballen

Titanium
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
Hi Dave,

Thanks, I enjoy your posts as well!

The reverse-biased diode on each relay coil is usually called a supressor or flyback or snubber diode. It's there because when the relay coil is switched off, the inductance of the coil tries to maintain the direction of the current flow. Since the circuit is open, it will generate a few thousand volts to try and maintain the current flow (enough to make a visible discharge spark). The diode in the drawing conducts that current safely back to the coil, protecting the rest of the circuit from the brief hundreds or thousands of volts transient that would otherwise be produced.

Using Flyback Diodes in Relays Prevents Electrical Noise in Your Circuits | PCB Design Blog | Altium

That's also the job that E14/E15 are doing. They are there to conduct away the reverse EMF current when the solenoid is turned off. E14/15 probably have either a diode or a varistor or both inside, probably not a ferrite coil. Strange symbols, I have not seen those before.

The new drawing is consistent with what Ross has written. No incorrect relay labels, K10 releases the spindle brake, and K12 is the tool change.

Ross, I'm sure you're right, but in my 50+ years of doing electronics I have never before seen an electrical drawing where two buffers take their inputs from the same wire 5/9 and yet have invisible control signals that let them do different things. In these triangle symbols, the worldwide universal standard is that the input comes from the wide side of the triangle and the output goes out the pointy side. And here, both inputs are coming from that exact same wire 5/9. But if there are LEDs on X52-2 and X52-3 and you can see them doing different things, then that's definitive.

I guess those drawings come from the 60s, maybe the Deckel electronics guys were smoking something at the time...

Cheers,
Bruce
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Bruce:
Well i will defer to your experience, but I think that 5/9 is not really a wire , but shows that 24 VDC is applied...Ie the output of all the triangles when switched is 24 VDC.OUT....all across the print top.
Think you are trying to be a bit too literal and that is not the way Deckel drew it. Think there are other inputs (not shown here in this sheet) that control the output of the driver (triangle)
Remember what is shown in the above prints is a wiring diagram...not a logic print!
Just like the bottom line 5/9 is ground or 0VDC....applied across the page bottom.
At least that is how i see things..

Cheers Ross
 

Colt45

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
SLC, UT
"5/9" is not a wire, it is a reference to the page number ("Blatt") and column ("9") on that page where that wire originates and where there is more detail on the circuit. FWIW, Dave's FP2NC drawings were done in the early 1980s.
 

ballen

Titanium
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
Gentlemen, I stand corrected, thank you for explaining!

Dave: if you want to see how the solenoid-controlled values for H and V are being separately controlled, look at page 5 column 9 to see how the driver signal (sorry signalS) are being generated.
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Dave: if you want to see how the solenoid-controlled values for H and V are being separately controlled, look at page 5 column 9 to see how the driver signal (sorry signalS) are being generated.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The preceding page only shows that the 24VDC continues...Which you can trace back through the E-stop circuit finally to T-3 transformer and bridge rectifier.
Here is a snap of the preceding page........NO controlling inputs for that triangle that switches the hydraulic pressure to allow tool change....
These are wiring prints and i believe (if anyone has any interest in how it actually works) those inputs are logic and happen at the board component level.
My belief is the answer lies in the third section of the "Orange Book". That section deals with the "PC ...Can't be more specific as my German is not good enough to untangle all the block diagrams.
But i am pretty sure i know how to read the wiring prints.......


full


Hope this works...new software is a bit obscure on posting photos...
Cheers Ross
 

Colt45

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 27, 2004
Location
SLC, UT
Section 3 in the orange book ("SPS- Steuerung") does indeed detail the PC and logic that controls the toolchange ("Werkzeugwechsel"), the page number ("Blatt nr"- found at the bottom right corner of the print) on my D4 FP4NC is 23

There are also a few pages at the back of that section with some of the PLC programming logic detailed in German.
It's important to note that though there is much in common over the years/models, the prints are specific to a given machine- Dave has a FP2NC Dialog 2, those prints will be different than a FP4NC Dialog4.
 

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
We are looking at the wiring of the PC. Pretty sure there are really no big differences between a Dialog 2 and Dialog 4 machine as long as they are
both fitted with the PC2...The big cabinet wiring is pretty much the same.

There will be differences in the software levels on the cards....but the wires in the big box will be the same.
Example: My FP4NC was originally built as a Dialog2 machine and upgraded sometime in the past, but the cabinet stayed the same, even down to having the PC1...Not only that but i have run that same machine on a later cabinet having a PC2 without making any changed, just plugged all the cables into the newer cabinet, worked perfectly.

There were some wiring changes over the years, such as the added wires for the high speed thermally protected servos on the FP4NC's
Then there is the aux. power outlet used for the high speed head which is deleted on the later Flip Head machines.
Other differences like additional cooling fans on the Bosch drive.....


Cheers Ross
 
Last edited:








 
Top