looking for a VMC for work. What about a Hurco?

[garychipmaker]

Well after losing both night 12 hour shift machinists my manager is finally looking at buying a VMC. I have at Fadal 4020 @ my home shop. Is a Hurco 40x20 or 50 x20 size machine a good idea. We make spare parts for our copper and brass rolling machines. And repair parts if possible. The guy that works opposite 12 hour shift as me worked @ a previous job that ran mold work on Hurco mills. I'm not sure if we can get enough money for a new machine and tooling for it. There doesn't seem to be many used machines for sale though. Mostly steel parts. Mostly simple 3axis parts What are your opinions we are located in Eastern Iowa so what about service available.

 

[ondori]

Hurco makes great machines. As far as I know all the Hurco units are still made in USA and only the Takumi line are made in Taiwan (not that there is anything wrong with that).

The Hurco VMCs are a proven design. So it all really comes down to preference and price.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Hurco has a very devout following. I used to work in a shop that had a few of them and the guys loved them.
While I'm a bit biased towards other brands, I was pretty impressed. The Hurcos made great parts and were pretty speedy.

 

[Kamil19951]

We ve bought new vm10i in 2019. As far as I am aware all machines supplied to UK are made in Taiwan.

Great machine, windows based control so loads of look ahead. I find interface to be very quick to move around once you get used to it. Some nice features like interrupt. Conversational is crap for what I do which is mainly mould work and copper electrodes plus some machining on injection moulded parts.

Performance wise I cannot complain. Hard milling is doable but you need fresh tools, otherwise there is some flex.

Downside is no access to macros for renishaw probing, so cannot use probing inside of programs. It takes few seconds for the spindle to stop in the program from high RPM. I thought some sort of brake would be standard feature, but no. Also I havent had much response from their apps so stopped trying.

Only problem I had with the machine over 4 5 years is skipped tooth on spindle belt drive which resulted atc dropping tools. Quite easy to calibrate spindle orientation on the drive.

We ve paid £42k for machine with renishaw toolsetter omp400 probe, coolant ring, air blast and some conversational option. No other brand other fhan chinese could beat it.

If i turned back time i would still go for the same machine but would definitely buy spindle chiller as it warms up above 9k rpm. Would also piss on their conversational options....

 

[RC Mech]

We ve bought new vm10i in 2019………..If i turned back time i would still go for the same machine but would definitely buy spindle chiller as it warms up above 9k rpm. Would also piss on their conversational options....

I know you said you’re doing IM parts, but what’s the issue with the convo? Intricate/unconventional components, no doubt difficult to translate. What about the user friendliness/utility as far as time savings?

Genuinely curious. I do molds and need something different:

 

[Kamil19951]

Well, every mould would be made as 3D assembly nowadays. To use conversational I would need to create paper drawing with all necessary dimmensions and then pretty much draw it again in the cnc control one by one. A lot of time wasted there and room for error.

You have issues like facing is defaulting to 60 percent stepover and no way to change it. If your facemill is 80mm and stock 60mm it would do it in two passes. You would have to fool the software to get it right. Leads, exits and helical entry settings are set for complete program and not operation.

Then you have issue with pricing. Adaptive toolpath for hsm would be an option for 1 grand. Same for dxf import, 3d machining etc...
If you kit it out to do the work you will spend more than on budget cam. Fusion 360, bobcam etc...

You could make argument for using it for bolster work, buf frankly if you are doing IM you need some sort of cam for cavities, cores and electrodes so what is the point.

 

[garychipmaker]

I think I should mention again this mill will be used on simple parts. No 3D contouring. It would be nice to have for milling radiuses and chamfers and such. We have some copper parts we make that are 200lbs finished weight that we mill on a worn out G&L HBM. the part has to be rotated or flipped for 9 operations with chamfers, radiuses, threaded holes and dovetails now. Speed isn't that important as is the ability be able to go do other jobs will the VMC is running.

 

[Mtndew]

Take a look at Hyundai-Wia. They are very inexpensive and would have a Fanuc control.
They make some simple 3 axis vmc's and some really badass ones.

https://machine.hyundai-wia.com/usa/product/product_list.asp?CATE_CODE_F=B&CATE_CODE_S=B02

We bought our first one about 15 years ago new (for $55k!) and it's rock solid for what it is. Replaced the spindle after 12 years.
It's not in the same arena as an Okuma, but they are workhorses.

 

[EmGo]

It's not in the same arena as an Okuma, but they are workhorses.

A lot of the new vmc's in China are double column, like the old Hillyers or the AJS (?) Mazaks. I really like that style for heavier work. Heck, it's pretty nice for light work too but harder to justify, they are so rare now in the US.

 

[garychipmaker]

1 thing I don't see with the Hurco conversational programming is being able to set conventional tool path vs climb milling. Climb milling kills inserts when profiling a part cut on a burn table As we do a good portion of our parts cut on a burn table up to 6"thick.

 

[EmGo]

1 thing I don't see with the Hurco conversational programming

They don't have an "eat g-code" option ? Even the kmb-1's did that.

I can't imagine using conversational on complicated parts

 

[gregormarwick]

I haven't used the conversational side of a Hurco control for years, but here's what I know about it.

This from version 8.x Winmax (~2010-2012 machines). Later software versions added more probing functionality like the possibility of probing NC work offsets inside conversational probing and such. Version 8 that I used could only save to the default NC work offset from a conversational probing block. Workaround to that was to use basic macro programming in your NC program to transfer the G54 offsets to whichever offset you were using.

Probing can absolutely be done in program. You can do it either with conversational probing inside a conversational program, NC probing in an NC block inside a conversational program, conversational probing with an NC program by calling the NC program from an NC block in a conversational program, or NC probing directly inside an NC program. These all assume you have the NC Merge option (IIRC the name) but that's usually on by default IME.

Leads (and any other cutting parameters that are not controlled at the block level) can be changed mid-conversational program with a Parameters block.

In the old-old Hurco controls cut direction and offset direction were specified in the first section of a Milling block. I didn't ever use the conversational enough on the Winmax to imprint it on my memory, but I am pretty certain it's just the same.

I am 90% sure you can control the stepover of a facing pass, but it's been too long and I can't remember for sure.

Hurco conversational is as good as it gets, if conversational is your thing. It is not for me. However, the Hurco control is also as good as it gets for operator friendliness regardless of how you use it. It's not the most high performance control on the market, but it's good enough in that department to not matter to most users.

Beyond the control, which you pay a premium for, the iron is acceptable, depending on the machine. VMX machines are a huge step up from the VM machines in terms of weight and cutting performance. They are all Taiwanese machines with lipstick on, and you can get the same with a Fanuc control for less money.

Nothing about them is made in the USA, except maybe the software.

 

[5 axis Fidia guy]

We have used Hurco's in our shop for the last 25 or more years doing mold work with great success, mostly for "pre heat treat" work, but hard milling is doable with them depending on your needs. The conversational programming is as easy as it gets, even if it's just importing a dxf file and tracing the lines, it's quick and powerful. I have posted lots of Powermill code out over the years for guys and it reads info quite quickly on 3d contouring. We only recently switched out most of our used machines to Okuma's, for reasons I don't really know.

 

[CAMasochism]

Take a look at Hyundai-Wia. They are very inexpensive and would have a Fanuc control.
They make some simple 3 axis vmc's and some really badass ones.

https://machine.hyundai-wia.com/usa/product/product_list.asp?CATE_CODE_F=B&CATE_CODE_S=B02

We bought our first one about 15 years ago new (for $55k!) and it's rock solid for what it is. Replaced the spindle after 12 years.
It's not in the same arena as an Okuma, but they are workhorses.

What size machine is it? Where I work we have 2 F960B's and a horizontal HS6300. They all have problems with their tool changers. I have to go out about once a week to help one of the operators with resetting the tool changer, and they have an absolute shit documentation on their tool recoveries (to match their shit documentation on just about everything else). I have made all of my own procedures that have been added to our maintenance procedures.

Our VMC's love to pull the tool out of the spindle then just hang up, and I found out the hard way not to touch the manual chain rotation in the back to look for tools because last time I did that it lost the positions of all of the tools.

 

[Matt_W]

1 thing I don't see with the Hurco conversational programming is being able to set conventional tool path vs climb milling. Climb milling kills inserts when profiling a part cut on a burn table As we do a good portion of our parts cut on a burn table up to 6"thick.

its in the program parameters, or if its a lines and arcs profile, program it other way round and milling type is right, or as a cheat mirror the block but don't mirror the path

 

[Matt_W]

Downside is no access to macros for renishaw probing, so cannot use probing inside of programs. It takes few seconds for the spindle to stop in the program from high RPM. I thought some sort of brake would be standard feature, but no. Also I havent had much response from their apps so stopped trying.

The renishaw probing is an option that includes training and support from Renshaw. As a work around, If you have the nc merge option you can probe in conversational, write to what work offset you want and then sub program call to your g code program.

You have issues like facing is defaulting to 60 percent stepover and no way to change it. If your facemill is 80mm and stock 60mm it would do it in two passes. You would have to fool the software to get it right. Leads, exits and helical entry settings are set for complete program and not operation.

You can program one line in lines and arcs for that.

 

[Luke.kerbey]

Hurco makes great machines. As far as I know all the Hurco units are still made in USA and only the Takumi line are made in Taiwan (not that there is anything wrong with that).

The Hurco VMCs are a proven design. So it all really comes down to preference and price.

I believe America only makes special orders. The rest make in the far east like the rest of machine makers.

 

[Luke.kerbey]

I make extrusion tooling where all the fancy form is wire eroded and the ‘bolster’ type work is done on the hurco.

We swapped from a 2000s Siemens recently and it is a genuinely decent machine for jobbing work. It’s more keystrokes compared to older machines but that’s part and parcel of having more functionality in modern controls.

Also the UK service and applications departments are really decent. Always pick the phone up straight to technical folks or they actually call you back and not leave you hanging!

The lack of facing step over is an odd but frustrating one but can be over come with changing the facemill diameter. Although that can become a problem if you then want to profile your part at the same time. Alternatively use a lines and arcs program.

 

[Mtndew]

What size machine is it? Where I work we have 2 F960B's and a horizontal HS6300. They all have problems with their tool changers. I have to go out about once a week to help one of the operators with resetting the tool changer, and they have an absolute shit documentation on their tool recoveries (to match their shit documentation on just about everything else). I have made all of my own procedures that have been added to our maintenance procedures.

Our VMC's love to pull the tool out of the spindle then just hang up, and I found out the hard way not to touch the manual chain rotation in the back to look for tools because last time I did that it lost the positions of all of the tools.

Haven't experienced tool changer issues ever on ours, they've been rock solid. 1 of them is a 20x40 vmc and the other is a 30x80 vmc.

 

[Billy_C]

What size machine is it? Where I work we have 2 F960B's and a horizontal HS6300. They all have problems with their tool changers. I have to go out about once a week to help one of the operators with resetting the tool changer, and they have an absolute shit documentation on their tool recoveries (to match their shit documentation on just about everything else). I have made all of my own procedures that have been added to our maintenance procedures.

Our VMC's love to pull the tool out of the spindle then just hang up, and I found out the hard way not to touch the manual chain rotation in the back to look for tools because last time I did that it lost the positions of all of the tools.

Hs400 with constant tool change issues as well.