Looking for part-off tool recommendations

[JSL_MFG]

So I've got a large production order, and the parts are being made on a 2001 Mazak Integrex 100-IISY. I've been using 17-4 H900, and the customer lets me use annealed if the HRC is high enough from the mill.

The material is 1-5/8" in diameter, and the parts I'm making are much more of a mill application. I'm basically using the lathe as a bar-fed mill, and the part-off is my final hurdle to overcome. So here's the deal: I'm cutting a 3mm wide slot behind the part with a Sandvik QD stick tool, which leaves extra stock on the backside. I then come back in and mill away most of the excess stock that's surrounding my part to speed up the op2 process. Once that's done, I grab a 2mm parting tool and come in to pop off the part. The whole shebang takes about 5 minutes per part, and it runs great for a while but always blows up my parting tools.

I'm currently using the Sandvik 1125 QD CM inserts and running at 330 SFM & .0039 IPR. The weird thing is that I don't break the inserts on the cutting edge. I'm actually snapping the insert in the middle, and then all hell breaks loose. The tools are failing with absolutely no rhyme or reason. From what I can tell, the insert seats themselves are getting a lot of load, and they seem to be fatiguing pretty quickly, which ends up allowing for catastrophic failure.

What kind of parting tools do you like to use for materials like 17-4? I can make these tools work for a few days at a time, but the goal is to run 24/7 with sister tooling. I can't get that far with tools that fail sporadically.

 

[BOB-OO]

Lol, I also will be running production on a new integrex. I have the QD & Yaxis QD & the KM Evo all in 3mm. Planning to test them all for the same reasons you stated above. Your IPR .0039 should be fine. The inserts should be wearing out not breaking. I have not seen the same issue with the QD running S7, M42, D2, CPMV10, no ss. .05IPR at +/- 250sfm.
Maybe the ss chip isn't breaking but curling back into the insert and chipping it causing the failure? what do your chips look like? have you put the broken insert under a microscope? Any vibration? Have you checked your B to C axis centerlines also X to C centerline - our 2000 integrex is off a bit, caused all kinds of weird grooving issues- the alignment problem didn't cause other milling or turning issues- we moved the groove tool in the holder to compensate because it was much cheaper, easier and faster then realigning the geometry.

 

[cyanidekid]

im not a CNC guy, but off the top of my head, sounds like you are hitting a harmonic frequency of the tool. have you tried changing stickout or overhang, upping/changing the feeds/speeds, or a different insert?
perhaps the tool vibration analysis service that MSC is offering might help here,
anyone tried that?

 

[sfriedberg]

While neither 0.004 IPR or 2mm tool width is crazy by themselves, what happens if you cut the IPR in half, or use a wider tool (3 or 4mm), as an experiment? I suspect the substantial feed and narrow tool are contributing to the inserts snapping and the seats getting messed up. Less in-feed, less downward force. Wider tool and seat, more resistance to breakage and deflection.

 

[guythatbrews]

While neither 0.004 IPR or 2mm tool width is crazy by themselves, what happens if you cut the IPR in half, or use a wider tool (3 or 4mm), as an experiment? I suspect the substantial feed and narrow tool are contributing to the inserts snapping and the seats getting messed up. Less in-feed, less downward force. Wider tool and seat, more resistance to breakage and deflection.

I would also use a 4mm tool for that deep a cut, especially if the cut is interrupted. Speed and feed you are using is reasonable. If a portion of the cut is interrupted halve that part of the feed.

 

[JSL_MFG]

Lol, I also will be running production on a new integrex. I have the QD & Yaxis QD & the KM Evo all in 3mm. Planning to test them all for the same reasons you stated above. Your IPR .0039 should be fine. The inserts should be wearing out not breaking. I have not seen the same issue with the QD running S7, M42, D2, CPMV10, no ss. .05IPR at +/- 250sfm.
Maybe the ss chip isn't breaking but curling back into the insert and chipping it causing the failure? what do your chips look like? have you put the broken insert under a microscope? Any vibration? Have you checked your B to C axis centerlines also X to C centerline - our 2000 integrex is off a bit, caused all kinds of weird grooving issues- the alignment problem didn't cause other milling or turning issues- we moved the groove tool in the holder to compensate because it was much cheaper, easier and faster then realigning the geometry.

I've had trouble breaking the chips. When I have it dialed in with coolant and speed/feed, I can get a nice short curling chip. Otherwise, I get watchspring type of chips, which have been problematic.

I don't have a test bar since this thing has a KM63XMZ spindle, but I just put an indicator on my 3mm parting tool blade & insert to get an idea. Running the indicator across the insert's cutting edge in the z-axis direction, it's within 0.0002". I ran an indicator along the cutting tool shank in X, and it was within .0002" as well. By no means was that a proper alignment check, but it leads me to believe the machine is pretty close to being aligned. Did you have a test bar to check alignment?

My iscar rep said that they'd seen issues with folks running the spindle in M03. He recommended running in M04 to put the forces into the machine ways. In my opinion, this is an old way of thinking, but maybe he's onto something. Are you running your parting tools in M03 or M04?

 

[JSL_MFG]

im not a CNC guy, but off the top of my head, sounds like you are hitting a harmonic frequency of the tool. have you tried changing stickout or overhang, upping/changing the feeds/speeds, or a different insert?
perhaps the tool vibration analysis service that MSC is offering might help here,
anyone tried that?

I'm running the tools as close to the holders as possible. The tools have a shoulder on them to seat against the holder in X and they're all snugged up as far as possible. I've even milled down holders to minimize stick out as much as humanly possible.

I've been all over the board with speeds and feeds. It's tough because the big brand guys recommend these really high speeds and feeds to get a good chip formation. I personally think the speeds and feeds are a bit high, but I've tried both high and low SFM & IPR combinations, chip breakers, insert grades, etc.

The tool vibration analysis MSC is selling is just tap testing. I'm not sure if they even offer that for turning tools.

 

[JSL_MFG]

I would also use a 4mm tool for that deep a cut, especially if the cut is interrupted. Speed and feed you are using is reasonable. If a portion of the cut is interrupted halve that part of the feed.

I've decreased the IPR, and that just makes a big mess of stringy chips. I'm always thrown off by parting tool feed rates. The amount of cutting forces going into that 3mm insert is insane. I wouldn't expect any 3mm endmill to withstand the same amount of force.

Any recommendations for a 4mm parting tool brand or grade?

 

[Ox]

So I've got a large production order, and the parts are being made on a 2001 Mazak Integrex 100-IISY. I've been using 17-4 H900, and the customer lets me use annealed if the HRC is high enough from the mill.

The material is 1-5/8" in diameter, and the parts I'm making are much more of a mill application. I'm basically using the lathe as a bar-fed mill, and the part-off is my final hurdle to overcome. So here's the deal: I'm cutting a 3mm wide slot behind the part with a Sandvik QD stick tool, which leaves extra stock on the backside. I then come back in and mill away most of the excess stock that's surrounding my part to speed up the op2 process. Once that's done, I grab a 2mm parting tool and come in to pop off the part. The whole shebang takes about 5 minutes per part, and it runs great for a while but always blows up my parting tools.

I'm currently using the Sandvik 1125 QD CM inserts and running at 330 SFM & .0039 IPR. The weird thing is that I don't break the inserts on the cutting edge. I'm actually snapping the insert in the middle, and then all hell breaks loose. The tools are failing with absolutely no rhyme or reason. From what I can tell, the insert seats themselves are getting a lot of load, and they seem to be fatiguing pretty quickly, which ends up allowing for catastrophic failure.

What kind of parting tools do you like to use for materials like 17-4? I can make these tools work for a few days at a time, but the goal is to run 24/7 with sister tooling. I can't get that far with tools that fail sporadically.

I had to switch to something new from my old and trusted Manchester a yr+ ago.

Went with the Tang Grip from Iscar.
I have to say that it is a good system.
I have the big 4 cornered blade holders, and [again] they doo a very good job.

I use 3mm for everything. 1-5/8 is NOT a large diameter.

I would buy this again.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Ox]

Another recommendation is - that if you are not one that is trying to push coolant through a .031 hole in a cut-off blade, you can save 1/3 on the cost by fetchin' one that is not drilled out.

Also - I like the "908" insert grade material more better.
I am sure that it is more brittle (harder) but I don't know that I have blown one yet for that type of failure, but I have worn out many "808" grade inserts prematurely for being too soft.

I run 24's frequently, so I run very conservative, and I feed at .004.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Mtndew]

I love Sandvik tooling and swear by just about everything they offer.
That being said, I don't think anyone can hold a candle to Iscar when it comes to grooving.

 

[JSL_MFG]

Another recommendation is - that if you are not one that is trying to push coolant through a .031 hole in a cut-off blade, you can save 1/3 on the cost by fetchin' one that is not drilled out.

Also - I like the "908" insert grade material more better.
I am sure that it is more brittle (harder) but I don't know that I have blown one yet for that type of failure, but I have worn out many "808" grade inserts prematurely for being too soft.

I run 24's frequently, so I run very conservative, and I feed at .004.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I've gotten this recommendation a few times now, and I actually do have one of those F-grip holders lying around. I might give it another shot on this job. Do you really see that much of a difference with through coolant? That seems to be what every tooling rep says is the problem, but I haven't seen enough evidence to support that claim in this application.

What material are you running when you're using that thing?

Out of curiosity, are you using M04 or M03 while you're using that tool? My iscar rep said he'd seen more success with that tool if you're pushing into the machine ways.

 

[Ox]

I run both LH/RH.

IDK if rigidity of the machine is a line item in a cut-off application.
Rough turning - sure, but ...

For the last week I have been running 3/8" 4140, 1-5/8" 4140, and ... whatever else ...

I don't run TTC on these, and tool life is very good. (908)


I don't know "F Grip"?
That must be another name for the same - based on the look of the insert?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Ox]

Example:

The 1.625" 4140 job has been running for a month.
I think that I am still on insert #2 or 3 after about 3000 pcs.

I pulled it out last night to replace, and I put it back in.


I have run many "mostly (or all) milling" jobs, up to 20 minute cycles.
This 4140 job gets milled into a 5/8 x 1-5/8 rectangle when done.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[BOB-OO]

I've had trouble breaking the chips. When I have it dialed in with coolant and speed/feed, I can get a nice short curling chip. Otherwise, I get watchspring type of chips, which have been problematic.

I don't have a test bar since this thing has a KM63XMZ spindle, but I just put an indicator on my 3mm parting tool blade & insert to get an idea. Running the indicator across the insert's cutting edge in the z-axis direction, it's within 0.0002". I ran an indicator along the cutting tool shank in X, and it was within .0002" as well. By no means was that a proper alignment check, but it leads me to believe the machine is pretty close to being aligned. Did you have a test bar to check alignment?

My iscar rep said that they'd seen issues with folks running the spindle in M03. He recommended running in M04 to put the forces into the machine ways. In my opinion, this is an old way of thinking, but maybe he's onto something. Are you running your parting tools in M03 or M04?

My KM63 Intgrex also didn't come with a test bar, but my trusty independent repair guy does. When required we have used ground 1" hard stock in an ER40 as our "test bar"- better then guessing. I had him in for a geometry check after we replaced the hard drive on the 640mt control. The new w2000 Osystem didn't allow the same adjustment- the parameter is in there but it had no effect so we are out of alignment by more then .002" so your .0002" sounds awesome to me. Our mill spindle centerline is sitting .002" off the cl of the SP1 spindle, when the parting tool hits a tougher material it does the same things you describe, random tool breaks, chatter, bad chips, broken insert leading to broken blades. Not all the time, worse in materials that don't produce a small chip. It was comped by parameter on the win95 control, and cutoff became an issue after we lost that. We suspect it is our grooving/cutoff issue, the KM Evo is holding up good in that machine-the insert is clamped into the tool w a screw. We use both M04 & M03 depending on the part with M04 preferred. These series of machines aren't very rigid compared to the new ones but I haven't seen a repeatable measurable difference turning or grooving clockwise vs cc- I've had reps say the same thing and it makes sense logically, I can't prove it.

 

[Ox]

I run all RH tooling in my Y axis lathes.
I see no benefit to "rigidity" when there is a servo motor and ball screw camped out in the middle.

My other ones have LH as much as possible.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[JSL_MFG]

My KM63 Intgrex also didn't come with a test bar, but my trusty independent repair guy does. When required we have used ground 1" hard stock in an ER40 as our "test bar"- better then guessing. I had him in for a geometry check after we replaced the hard drive on the 640mt control. The new w2000 Osystem didn't allow the same adjustment- the parameter is in there but it had no effect so we are out of alignment by more then .002" so your .0002" sounds awesome to me. Our mill spindle centerline is sitting .002" off the cl of the SP1 spindle, when the parting tool hits a tougher material it does the same things you describe, random tool breaks, chatter, bad chips, broken insert leading to broken blades. Not all the time, worse in materials that don't produce a small chip. It was comped by parameter on the win95 control, and cutoff became an issue after we lost that. We suspect it is our grooving/cutoff issue, the KM Evo is holding up good in that machine-the insert is clamped into the tool w a screw. We use both M04 & M03 depending on the part with M04 preferred. These series of machines aren't very rigid compared to the new ones but I haven't seen a repeatable measurable difference turning or grooving clockwise vs cc- I've had reps say the same thing and it makes sense logically, I can't prove it.

So I think you sent me down a rabbit hole, checking every aspect of the machine's accuracy. I actually discovered that my milling spindle was slightly out of orientation. I changed that with parameter SP07, and I found out that the spindle orientation clamp is actually pulling the holder out of orientation by about 1/2 a degree. My 45 Deg holder is actually out by about 0.005" over 6."

From my perspective, this is a huge problem. If the tools are out of orientation, they'll be pushing rather than cutting for sure.

Called Mazak, and they said to pull the spindle housing cover off and try to adjust the high-index coupling. The process sheet they sent me looks nothing like the KM spindle, so I'm currently stuck. I attached the process sheet they sent over to me. It might be useful for you one day.

 

[BOB-OO]

thanks & sorry about the rabbit hole, intgrex's are awesome machines but complicated. I'd like to know if alignment solves the issue, watch out if ur hard drive fails, SP07 really let us down in w2000. The old girl is still cutting but we just got this...Its quite an upgrade.

 

[Sam L]

Not to go off on a tangent, but has anyone tried the Sandvik Y axis part off tools?
I heard they are quite impressive.
I haven't tried it myself yet, was wondering if it would help.

Sam

 

[JSL_MFG]

Not to go off on a tangent, but has anyone tried the Sandvik Y axis part off tools?
I heard they are quite impressive.
I haven't tried it myself yet, was wondering if it would help.

Sam

I considered it. My Sandvik reps were recommending it and screaming about how much rigidity you get in the parting blade. The thing is, pushing the forces into the blade will make it more rigid. However, that's because you have more meat to push all those cutting forces into. I asked Sandvik if there was a decrease in cutting forces on the cutting edge and insert seats, and nobody could actually answer that. It's certainly not a bad idea, but I wasn't sure if it would solve my issue.