Looking to move into an industrial machine, and looking for the right machine for the job. Seeking people smarter than I to help guide me.

[Elemental_Garage]

Hello all,

I run a part-time small business building custom cars. These would generally be considered pro-touring builds if you're familiar with the space. I have spent some time on hobbyist machines using mostly Mach 3 as a controller, and a little time with path pilot. I'm looking to step into a more industrial machine as that opens up the workspace for larger parts, which I would have needed to mill in multiple pieces and assemble. I'd like to move forward smartly and get balance getting a machine that has EVERYTHING, with the reality of being cost-contrained and getting something that will work nicely with what I'll actually be milling.

• Most of the pieces will be either one-off or low volume (a couple a week or month), so easier programming and operation is a priority as opposed to the ability to run off hundreds of parts.
• Materials would primarily be 6061 for larger parts (ex. 22x15" dash insert), 316 stainless usually for smaller parts (ex. 6" bracket, knobs, buttons), and mild steel for some misc weldable brackets. The occasional copper and brass depending on the vehicle theme (and some odd jobs for the girlfriend)
• Speed is not a huge concern since this isn't a machine that will be anywhere near a full-duty cycle
• Any auto-probing is helpful, either with edge-finding or tool height, but again not 100% required
• Tool changing is helpful since a lot of what I do goes through a number of tools to go from roughing down to fine detail, but is not a game-breaker. I can't say speed isn't a priority and then limit myself to all speed-enhancing mods I suppose.

I was originally set on finding a used VF-2, but I currently only have single-phase power in my shop, so I am more limited on machines unless I pay to upgrade, or get a converter (which I think are pretty $$$). Right now I'm budgeting around 20-40k for a machine. I have been talking with someone about a 2012 TM-2p (no probing) that only has 500 hours for 28k (+ shipping across the US). Looking to see what other options it has as well.

Serviceability is important to me. I don't mind problem-solving the occasional issue, but also don't want a machine that when I'm in over my head there is no one to call or come service it. I do have some Haas techs in my area, hence why I was looking that direction. But I am open to other machines/suggestions that you all might think I should be looking towards.

Apologies for the entry-level question. Just trying to make the jump in a semi-intelligent way.

Cheers all!

 

[Garwood]

All cnc's made since 1981 are pretty easy to use. They have pretty much the exact same user interface and run the same code.

Haas is a fucking horrible value in a used machine.

In vehicle terms, Haas is like a Volkswagon. A 1.8T car or a TDI wasn't a bad deal to buy new. But boy did the next get fucked when he bought it at 80K miles and the trans blew up and VW only offers new transmissions for $5000, no parts. The performance wasn't really that great to begin with and it turned out the TDI got such great mileage because they didn't actually meet any of the emissions requirements they should have. Like how Haas says you get 30HP and 1200 IPM, but you really have 12HP and 300IPM.

Lots of machines out there. Most are a significantly better value than a Haas on the used market. Fanuc is solid and despite what the Haas fanboys say they are easy to use. Fanuc is fast and Fanuc doesn't lie to you- If it says 30HP and 2000 IPM by golly you will have 30HP and 2000 IPM. Parts support goes back 40+ years. Fanuc techs are everywhere.

 

[Elemental_Garage]

I appreciate the reply. I also see you're in Oregon. I'm over near Sandy. Any recommendations on a vendor local that deals in used machines to look at?

Any other brands besides Fanuc to keep an eye out for?

 

[Garwood]

I appreciate the reply. I also see you're in Oregon. I'm over near Sandy. Any recommendations on a vendor local that deals in used machines to look at?

Any other brands besides Fanuc to keep an eye out for?

I'm out in wine country SW of PDX.

There are no good dealers around here. Jerry Spoon has OK deals sometimes, but he can be a struggle to make sense of and everything will be dirty, needing work and as-is anyway.

Craigslist and aerospace auctions are the best places to find deals on machines. You just missed an aero auction in Everrett with some sweetheart deals on VMC's.

Fanuc is the control that most machine tool builders use besides Haas. Haas makes their own control.

 

[Elemental_Garage]

Okay, so not specifically recommending a robodrill, just other brands that use a Fanuc control?

I'm familiar with Wine country too. I used to live over about 35 mins west of PDX near some of the vinyards for Elk Cove and others.

 

[Elemental_Garage]

I've been keeping my eye on craigslist, and FB marketplace as well. It seems most I've come across are 3-phase, so perhaps I need to figure out a solution for that if I can't find many/any that run on single. Any experience with Fadal?

Also, how do you come across these auctions?

Appreciate the info!

 

[masome]

I like Milltronics machines. They have a very user friendly conversational control and some decent high speed machining. I like their IL machines for the VMCs as the motors are mounted directly to the spindle and they aren't belt driven.

 

[Elemental_Garage]

I like Milltronics machines. They have a very user friendly conversational control and some decent high speed machining. I like their IL machines for the VMCs as the motors are mounted directly to the spindle and they aren't belt driven.

Appreciate it! Those look like nice machines, though they seem a bit beyond what I'm budgeting. Cheers!

 

[MwTech Inc]

Only advice I would add is...... anything used "will" require something to be fixed. Maybe small, maybe a lot...... not knowing your electrical skills, troubleshooting skills etc... you may need to select your machine based on local service vs machine options.
Also figure 3-4k min to get some tooling, vice/s, etc so you can even use the thing...there is a ton of stuff that goes along with machine use.
Don't forget rigging and the costs, a VMC to hold a 22x15 part is going to be 8-10 k average. You aint going to push it around on a pallet jack..lol
Lastly don't buy "cheap China toolholders" all your doing is wasting money as you will find out real soon you need good stuff .......

 

[Mebfab]

I've been keeping my eye on craigslist, and FB marketplace as well. It seems most I've come across are 3-phase, so perhaps I need to figure out a solution for that if I can't find many/any that run on single. Any experience with Fadal?

Also, how do you come across these auctions?

Appreciate the info!

Not many deals at auction anymore. They went to online bidding. People dont check condition and bid from home. Maybe some deals. But have to look much farther and much longer. I have had better deals off craigslist and facebook. Just dont buy From Al Babin

 

[Elemental_Garage]

Only advice I would add is...... anything used "will" require something to be fixed. Maybe small, maybe a lot...... not knowing your electrical skills, troubleshooting skills etc... you may need to select your machine based on local service vs machine options.
Also figure 3-4k min to get some tooling, vice/s, etc so you can even use the thing...there is a ton of stuff that goes along with machine use.
Don't forget rigging and the costs, a VMC to hold a 22x15 part is going to be 8-10 k average. You aint going to push it around on a pallet jack..lol
Lastly don't buy "cheap China toolholders" all your doing is wasting money as you will find out real soon you need good stuff .......

Yes, will factor that in as well. And trying to get the shop in a spot where once it lands, it can stay there. I've been doing planning on Chief Architect to ensure all the power, air, water, insulation, heat, etc is all run before I drop anything heavy in there.

 

[plastikdreams]

I wouldn't be afraid to look at haas, there's literally 100s of thousands of machines of all ages doing work.

 

[EmGo]

Lastly don't buy "cheap China toolholders" all your doing is wasting money as you will find out real soon you need good stuff .......

What a giant dump truck load of hooey. I've bought and used literally hundreds of beatup old CAT 50, Kwik-Switch, 2" straight shank, CAT 40, BT 50 and other toolholders, none of them in great condition. Just ran off a few hundred parts in a 1980's machine with some Kwik-Switch holders that probably came over on the Ark and looked like it, too. They did the job fine.

If you are doing aerospace work to tenths, yeah sure but he's making a part here, a part there, a dash panel, probably a brake caliper hanger. Save money on the toolholders as much as possible, quantity counts more than quality in these circumstances.

Maybe get a nice boring bar (seems like a lot of people don't even know what one is these days. Interpolated holes are not round) and call that goodenough, for the "high quality toolholders" end of things.

 

[Garwood]

I've not had good results with lower end toolholders. I have a bunch of 6" length Cat50 side lock endmill holders that sing something fierce under any conditions.

I've used some janky junk with good results and some cheap China holders work just peachy, but the only holders that I've had that are good for absolutely nothing are cheap China ones.

 

[Vancbiker]

…….I've used some janky junk with good results and some cheap China holders work just peachy, but the only holders that I've had that are good for absolutely nothing are cheap China ones.

This says a lot. Consistency is not a hallmark of Chinese products. Sometimes you win, but often lose. My latest foray in the world of Chinese tooling involved some engraving tools. I bought cheap Chinese because I thought “how hard is engraving in brass gonna be?”. After 40 pieces the tool was shot. Chipped and raising a significant burr. Went with a Harvey and finished the order (60 more parts) and the tool still looks and cuts like new.

 

[EmGo]

After 40 pieces the tool was shot. Chipped and raising a significant burr. Went with a Harvey and finished the order (60 more parts) and the tool still looks and cuts like new.

Well he's not making a hundred dash panels, he's making one.

I'm not saying "don't look at the toolholders you are buying" but this crap "don't get cheap china" is stupid. Some tools are good, some tools are bad.

And here's another hint : i'm old enough to have bought a lot of Made in USA stuff. Some of it was great, some of it was shit. I never said "Don't buy that American crap because it's not consistent" which was just as true, when the US made stuff, as it is for China.

The point is, try to get something that works. Way back when, many times I could buy a crappy carbide cutter from Enco for $30 or a $500 tool from Sandvik. Which one made sense depended on the job.

These cut-and-dried "rules" are not realistic.

This says a lot. Consistency is not a hallmark of Chinese products. Sometimes you win, but often lose.

I've bought plenty of American and German and Japanese and English stuff in my life, too. Same facts apply. Everyone makes some shit. Sometimes shit is a better deal. If I have to knock off the slag on the end of a flame-cut piece of high-carbon steel, then I'd rather go through five crappy $10 end mills than one $200 good one. The good one's gonna get wrecked too.

IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

This guy is not doing aerospace. Even those crappy hard-turned Haas holders should work fine for him. IMO, he's better off having a larger selection of cheap ones than just a couple expensive ones ... in the situation he describes. Not for everyone, for him.

 

[EmGo]

Sorry to jump up and down, Vanc, but this thing I see recently about "just pay more ! it's worth it !" really bothers me. Lots of time it is not worth it. It really depends on the situation.

I can think of many times I fell for that schtick, especially in the early days, and wish I had that wasted money back. One example in particular, I was a devout Sandvik customer. But for some reason once I picked up a bunch of crappy $4 inserts. Guess what ? For quite a few jobs they lasted 4/5 as long as the $10 "better" inserts. I'd been buying the high-priced spread for years. You can imagine how many hundreds of dollars were just pissed away. These situations are not as straightforward as just "buy the better tool, it's worth it".

As an aftercomment, I also think "China consistency is bad" is crap. China is a country. That's like buying one thing from Enco then another from Kurt and saying "US consistency is bad." Countries don't make stuff. Companies do.

Running a shop is not so simple.

 

[MwTech Inc]

What a giant dump truck load of hooey

Sorry don't agree ......since he is doing low volume work is exactly the reason to buy good holders.(example Maritool) He's not going to be buying 40 of them.........
So he buys cheap China(or wherever they come from) stuff, will they be good or bad, who knows. Isn't the whole purpose of buying a machine to make nice parts???
Why skimp on the one thing that interfaces between the machine and the part??? Buy hey, to each their own.........

By your logic he should buy the cheapest vice, measuring tools, heck everything ...why not, he only doing low volume.
Totally understand there is no cut an dried formula on tooling and inserts etc. been there for 30 years. But you don't need to start out with crap upfront

 

[EmGo]

By your logic he should buy the cheapest vice, measuring tools, heck everything ...why not, he only doing low volume.

You might have the problem that you cannot judge value, therefore you just go on price.

Let's come back to a real world example.
Was running Sandvik cnmg 432's all day long. $10 each. Ran out or something and had to use a box of $4 junkers from god knows where, nigeria for all I know. 8620, 4140, 4340 mostly. 400 fpm, maybe .020" feed, about .250 depth of cut.

Knock me over with a feather, the $4 ones lasted almost as long as the $10 ones. So, 15 minutes a corner, four corners per insert, that's about an insert per hour, $80/day. The cheapos lasted almost as long but $4 each, $32, lets say $40 to be generous to Sandvik.

That's $40 a day times five days a week times four weeks a month = $800/month or $9,600 per year.

I think that is worth saving, for exactly the same finish and repeatability.

Price is NOT the deciding factor and yes you can make "nice parts" on much less than a Makino with Schunk vises and NX for programming.

In the machine shop business you need to have a little more brains than just buying the most expensive thing you can find and calling it good.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Never said price was the factor.........I have no problem judging value.
Not going to get in a pissing match with you, but for one product we make in house we use a 1943 K&T No#1 for one critical part. Which is just one of many old heavy iron machines sitting here....the setup, the part design, the cutting process just fits the ol girl.... So brag on all you want.

Also, you are basing your opinion on experience, whatever that may be. I don't see you mentioning that you are using Chinese machines or tooling in your posts?? So far you have just named old American iron and tooling, and my shop is full of the same thing. Unless that stuff was totally abused it will work fine.
But he does not have any of that, he is buying a VMC. He has ZERO experience with the machine that will be coming in. So for him , fighting crappy vises, runout tooling, cheap carbide will only mess him up during the learning curve. So he spends a bit more for some good stuff up front, so what? He won't regret it.
Once he learns the process if he wants to try chug fooeys holder/inserts, fine, but he will at least have some experience how the good inserts performed and can make his own judgement just like you said in a previous post you did with inserts.