What's new
What's new

Lucas 41 HBM head alignment issue

hope

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Location
mebane n.c.
I bought this machine and have had to do a lot of work on it to get it functional I put an angle plate on the table and lined it up parallel with the spindle. when I move the saddle in to check it is way off I put an indicator on the spindle and rotated it from side to side and I am off approx .020 from side to side using the edge of the table to measure from in 20 inches. I Think that I am going to have to remove the head and work on the ways in the head The column measures true The machine had been worked on in the past before I bought it They had installed rulon strips under saddle they were loose the head appears to have the same material only it appears to be glued in. I have no experience in scraping and alignment. I need to get this head lined up The machine I have is a lot like the one Kieth Rucker has except it was made in 1935 I can put shims between the ways on the head and bring it in but this can mean messing up the ways on the column. The moglice people helped me repair the saddle so that seems to be ok The table seems to be ok. Where do I start I have a hand scraper just no experience.
 

Paolo_MD

Stainless
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
Location
Damascus, MD
I'm not sure if I understand correctly your description, but to me it looks like the problem is in the ways and gibs of the table and saddle, allowing it to twist when moving it back and forth.
Try pushing the table toward the spindle on the operator side and away from the spindle on the opposite side, take a measurement. Then pull it away from the spindle at the operator side and push it toward the spindle on the opposite side and take another measurement.
I would be ready to bet that you can explain this way most of the misalignment you observe.
In the best case scenario, you just need to adjust the saddle gib (which, if I recall correctly, is a taper gib) and the table gib. If this is not enough, you need at least to relieve the center prtion of the saddle (and table) ways.

Paolo
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Manchester, England
I bought this machine and have had to do a lot of work on it to get it functional I put an angle plate on the table and lined it up parallel with the spindle. when I move the saddle in to check it is way off I put an indicator on the spindle and rotated it from side to side and I am off approx .020 from side to side using the edge of the table to measure from in 20 inches. I Think that I am going to have to remove the head and work on the ways in the head The column measures true The machine had been worked on in the past before I bought it They had installed rulon strips under saddle they were loose the head appears to have the same material only it appears to be glued in. I have no experience in scraping and alignment. I need to get this head lined up The machine I have is a lot like the one Kieth Rucker has except it was made in 1935 I can put shims between the ways on the head and bring it in but this can mean messing up the ways on the column. The moglice people helped me repair the saddle so that seems to be ok The table seems to be ok. Where do I start I have a hand scraper just no experience.
How do you know “ the column measures true “ ?

What tests did you perform to come to this conclusion ? On the machines made over here the columns were bolted and dowelled down to the base. They had a rib running along the back of the base where the column sat. The column was fitted to this rib and the alignment of the spindle to the master way ( usually the way nearest the operator‘s station ) was adjusted in relation to this rib. Everything was worked back from that master way, saddle alignment, table alignment etc.
Over a period of time for various reasons the fit of the column to the rib had to be re-adjusted.

Regards Tyrone.
 
Last edited:

Richard King

Diamond
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Location
Cottage Grove, MN 55016
You mention Moglice.com Did Cody the service tech come out there to help you? Did you inject some Moglice on the table and saddle ways? Cody is a professional Machine Rebuilder and travels the USA rebuilding machines. I tell people we do not have a crystal ball and can't read your mind. You need to explain yourself better as you can see what you wrote is confusing to us. Either draw a sketch, take some photo's and tell us again what your checking. You said the Turcite on the saddle was loose? How do the base and saddle box ways measure? Did you Micrometer the column ways? An easy way to test the gib are to take off the wipers and try to slide in a .002" feeler gage. If you can slide one in, tighten the gibs. You should measure all the ways, width, long and top to bottom. Did the former owners machine the ways? If the ways micrometer good and the feeler gage doesn't go in, then it could be the head. (oh how big is your angle plate and it is precision?) To many this we are guessing at. Tell us some better info and include some pictures. Be sure to set the camera at the lowest pixels or the new PM program won't let you attach photo's. You can also call me if that helps. PM me for my number. Rich
 

hope

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Location
mebane n.c.
Sorry to be so unclear As far as the table and saddle are concerned I had to remove them and repair the ways between the saddle and the bed. I removed the rulon which was laid under the saddle, which was not glued in. I put moglice in place doing it the way the people from devit machinery instructed me. I was shocked how well it came out. There is no looseness in the table or the saddle.
When I place an angle plate parallel with the spindle on the table. I indicated it in moving the spindle in and out. When I move the saddle to X- or away x+ from the head I am showing .01 of movement on the indicator in 12.5 inches of travel. The spindle is still. I tried doing the opposite by indicating the angle plate moving the saddle then when moving the spindle in and out I get the same results. The way I checked the column was to place a bar coming off the table with an indicator I moved the saddle in to measure across face to across face on the ways of the column. They were true.
I would post pictures bet I cannot import them from my cell phone I have to take it in to have someone fix it. this will take a day or two.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Manchester, England
Just because the column vertical ways clock true from the table doesn’t necessarily mean that the milling spindle axis of travel will also be true to the table. On pretty old machines you can get differential wear on the spindle frame ways. The one at the front will normally wear more than the one at the rear. Not a lot, but it makes a difference. You then find the milling spindle isn’t pointing true to the long travel ways.

That’s why we worked from the milling spindle down to the master way. As I said it’s usually the inside face of the way nearest the operator. Everything is worked in from there. We had special DTI holders to enable us to reach down onto the inside face of the way. The normal spindle travel could be 2ft on the smaller machines going up to 4ft on the bigger ones. I’d expect the tolerance to be no more than 0.001” in the travel.

Once that was got right the saddle could be fitted to the bed. We’d swing trammel from the spindle to the master way on the saddle. That would be the inside face of the way nearest the operator again. Over the length of the saddle the trammel tolerance would be no more than 0.001”. Once you’ve got the saddle running correctly you can fit the travelling table. We worked that in from the master tee slot. That was the tee slot in the centre of the table.

Setting up a Hor bore needs to be a A to B to C etc procedure. You can’t start at F and then move on to J.

Regards Tyrone.
 
Last edited:

hope

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Location
mebane n.c.
here are some pictures . When I move the saddle and the indicator reaches the other end of the angle plate which is 12.5 inches it goes from 0. to + .010. I would show that but the picture will not load. I am not moving the spindle in and out only the saddle.
 

Attachments

  • KIMG0373.JPG
    KIMG0373.JPG
    1,016.1 KB · Views: 38
  • KIMG0381.JPG
    KIMG0381.JPG
    988.1 KB · Views: 38
  • KIMG0380.JPG
    KIMG0380.JPG
    1,002.6 KB · Views: 38

marka12161

Stainless
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
Just because the column vertical ways clock true from the table doesn’t necessarily mean that the milling spindle axis of travel will also be true to the table. On pretty old machines you can get differential wear on the spindle frame ways. The one at the front will normally wear more than the one at the rear. Not a lot, but it makes a difference. You then find the milling spindle isn’t pointing true to the long travel ways.

That’s why we worked from the milling spindle down to the master way. As I said it’s usually the inside face of the way nearest the operator. Everything is worked in from there. We had special DTI holders to enable us to reach down onto the inside face of the way. The normal spindle travel could be 2ft on the smaller machines going up to 4ft on the bigger ones. I’d expect the tolerance to be no more than 0.001” in the travel.

Once that was got right the saddle could be fitted to the bed. We’d swing trammel from the spindle to the master way on the saddle. That would be the inside face of the way nearest the operator again. Over the length of the saddle the trammel tolerance would be no more than 0.001”. Once you’ve got the saddle running correctly you can fit the travelling table. We worked that in from the master tee slot. That was the tee slot in the centre of the table.

Setting up a Hor bore needs to be a A to B to C etc procedure. You can’t start at F and then move on to J.

Regards Tyrone.
I'm contemplating a similar restoration on a 3"HBM in the distant future. So let me make sure I understand step 1. You would retract the spindle, mount an indictor base on the spindle and indicate the inside of the vertical way closest to the spindle. You would then run the head up and down and observe any deviation. You would then extend the spindle some amount, repeat and so on until the spindle was extended to its' maximum travel correct?
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Manchester, England
I'm contemplating a similar restoration on a 3"HBM in the distant future. So let me make sure I understand step 1. You would retract the spindle, mount an indictor base on the spindle and indicate the inside of the vertical way closest to the spindle. You would then run the head up and down and observe any deviation. You would then extend the spindle some amount, repeat and so on until the spindle was extended to its' maximum travel correct?
No you misunderstand me. The DTI was mounted on the spindle nose via a fixture that enabled you to reach down to the inside face of the “ Long Travel “ master way on the bed. Not the vertical ways on the column. The way you need to indicate first is the long travel way nearest the operators station. You then propel the spindle out along the “ inside face “ of that way taking your readings. Ensure that the spindle does not rotate during this test, for obvious reasons, even in the slightest.
You can then set the column on the base to give you a 0”-0” reading on the spindle to long way test. Once you’re happy with that you can re-dowel the column to the base and bolt everything up tight.
After that the saddle and travelling table must be set in the correct alignment but that’s for another day.

If you think about it the test you suggest doesn’t prove anything. I’d guarantee the needle wouldn’t flicker on the DTI once you set off travelling the DTI.

To check the spindle frame /column alignment you need a big ( 3 ft or 4 ft “ ) square set on the master long travel way and you run the DTI up and down that. To check the column in the other plane you need a girder style straight edge across the ways. Sit your square on that and run the DTI up and down the square. You need your readings to be 0.000” at the base to plus 0.001” at the top of the square to compensate for the “ push off “ when milling. I also had a box level that got the column nearly bang on before I did this test.

Of course all this assumes that the bed of the machine had been levelled accurately already, and it sits on a decent foundation.

Regards Tyrone.
 
Last edited:

marka12161

Stainless
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
You can then set the column on the base to give you a 0”-0” reading on the spindle to long way test. Once you’re happy with that you can re-dowel the column to the base and bolt everything up tight.
Gotcha. The measurements you recommend certainly make sense. Regardng your sentence above, am i corect in understanding that "set the column on the base to give you a 0”-0” reading" basically means you rotate the column about the vertical axis until the spindle runs parallel to the long way? My machine has what looks like two dowel pins that I assume are for aligning the column to the base. What do you mean by "re-dowel"?

Thanks
Mark
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Manchester, England
Gotcha. The measurements you recommend certainly make sense. Regardng your sentence above, am i corect in understanding that "set the column on the base to give you a 0”-0” reading" basically means you rotate the column about the vertical axis until the spindle runs parallel to the long way? My machine has what looks like two dowel pins that I assume are for aligning the column to the base. What do you mean by "re-dowel"?

Thanks
Mark
Yes you “ rotate “ ( I prefer re-align ) the column on the bed. Of course all this is done very carefully and the movements are almost microscopic, only a few thou at the most.
Re-dowel means exactly what it says. We used big taper dowels that were drilled and tapped for extraction and insertion with a slide hammer. We just re-reamed the holes very carefully with a big taper reamer and let the existing taper dowels in a little bit further. If your machine has parallel dowels you’ll need to re-ream the holes a size bigger and make new dowels. Taper are obviously the way to go.

Regards and off to my bed, Tyrone.
 
Last edited:

hope

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Location
mebane n.c.
There is wear in the spindle but not enough for it to sag I ran an indicator over the top of the spindle at both ends and it was the same when extended out. As far as the master way that you were talking about I ran an indicator in and out moving my spindle approx. 20. inches. It is out .025. There is wear in the bed ways on the sides up to .008 and the thicknesses at least .005. This makes it hard to get a good measurement. I did insert a piece of shim stock behind the headstock on the front way which brought it within .002
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Manchester, England
The spindle carrier and spindle sounds to be in decent condition for its age. Incidentally what sort of reading do you get when you put a DTI plunger onto the spindle and revolve it ? Try it with the spindle fully withdrawn and then fully extended.

A deviation of 0.025” in 20” of spindle travel along the master way sounds a lot to me. I would be expecting the deviation to be in single figures at the most. Are you 100% sure that the spindle didn’t revolve slightly when you were propelling it out. Obviously that would affect your reading In a big way. How thick was the shim you put in between spindle frame and column ?

Regarding the ways - I’m not familiar with that make of machine but over here on the machines of that age the long travel box ways came with two methods of guidance. One method had the saddle being guided solely by the front way. The “ Fast Angle “ of the saddle rode on the inside face of the front way. That’s why we used it as the master way. The saddle was kept in contact with the way by use of gibs bearing on the front face of that way. It’s called “ The narrow guide principle”. So all the work was done by that way.

Later on that changed. The fast angle still rode on the inside face of the front way but the gibs were moved over to the inside face of the other way, the one at the rear. I think this is a better method, especially when the long travel ball screw is positioned in the middle of the two ways. Imagine opening a cupboard drawer with both hands, that is the new method. The old method was like trying to open a cupboard drawer with one hand.

Which style of way does your machine have ?

How big a job is it to tweak the column over to correct the “ spindle in line “ reading ? I would presume it involves pulling the dowels and loosening the holding down bolts.
On our machines there was a rib about 3” by 3” cast onto the back of the bed. This was machined in line with the bed ways when it was all being planed or slideways ground in the shop. This worked in conjunction with a setting strip on the back of the column at the bottom. The setting strip was machined first and it was used to sit the column down on it’s back when the column ways were being planed or slideways ground. So everything was in line. The column was pulled up to two 5/8” thick plates inserted between the rib on the bed and the setting strip on the back of the column. There were two bolts that went through the rib on the base and into the column via the two plates. You could use this system to adjust the “ spindle in line “ alignment. As time went by and differential wear appeared in the spindle frame/column fit we used to remove the plates, surface grind them, and replace them. On a machine that was well used, maybe double shifts with a lot of milling, this procedure would take place every 4 or 5 years.

Does your machine have a similar system or is the column just sat on the bed ?

What worries me in this story is that someone inexperienced in Hor bore work in the past could had altered several alignments incorrectly just to get the machine working after a fashion. Doing several ” wrongs “ to achieve a “ right “. It’s easy to start chasing your tail if you don’t know what you’re doing. Hor bore alignments need a lot of thinking about. Spindle only machines aren’t too bad, the one’s with a built in facing slide are much more complicated from an alignment point of view. You have two entirely different methods of generating machined surfaces In one machine.

I hope that all makes sense. Some photos of the relevant areas of the machine would be a great help.

Regards Tyrone.
 
Last edited:

Richard King

Diamond
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Location
Cottage Grove, MN 55016
I didn't read all of the posts. Like Tyrone said your test on the little angle plate isn't to hot. Your going ahead of the cart making that test.. We are trying to help you figure this out and in order to do that we have to follow some steps or rules. Have you tested the machine to see if the bed is level and aligned? I have seen unleveled and twisted bases make a square check go wild.
First you need to do is to verify the bed is level and aligned then verify Table and saddle are square to each other. Buy a 18" or bigger precision Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoya or Starrett blade square or a good Suburban tool angle block and move the table indicating one side of the square and then the other.

I used to specialize in rebuilding boring bars, so please bare with me. So did Tyrone. What he is telling you is to sweep the front face of the saddle from the spindle. (I think as it's hard to try to write it) When I rebuilt Lucas and G&L HBM I made a sweep bare that I fastened to a spindle tool holder I would use a 36" flat bar stock so the sweep was 72" . If it sweeps within .001" in 72" its more than good. I also would sweep the column ways. You have to sweep it multiple times and get an average.
Also as some others said. Do you know if the spindle is tight in the quill? What are you going to use the machine for? I teach you have to test the machine or rebuild the machine like "Building a house" Start by making sure the machine is level or the footings are good
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2006
Location
Manchester, England
Another issue that emerges regularly on old machines is differential wear and tear on the spindle frame in the vertical plane. The spindle frame is normally unbalanced on the vertical ways, even the balance weight is unable to correct the problem 100%. What you find is that the spindle frame begins to sag at the tail bracket end. That’s because it’s heavier at the tail end. If the gibs aren’t regularly adjusted up this can get worse over the years.

You find that although the column will be perfectly true, when you are milling from side to side and dropping the spindle frame down for successive cuts you can get a saw tooth effect on the finish. The bigger your milling cutter is the more obvious the saw tooth effect will be.

The check for this is to swing trammel the spindle back to the column ways. I had a big aluminium test bar 1” thick by about 3” wide and 4ft long that bolted to either the spindle nose or the facing slide when the machine had a facing slide. I also had a device made from aluminium that held my DTI so I could measure easily from the test bar to the vertical ways. It was adjustable for different machines and made from aluminium for lightness when holding it high up on machine columns. You could use an inside micro but I found a DTI was better.
If your swing trammel wasn’t 0”-0” within a thou or two it was a spindle frame off job and get the scraper out.

Regards Tyrone.
 

marka12161

Stainless
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
Yes you “ rotate “ ( I prefer re-align ) the column on the bed. Of course all this is done very carefully and the movements are almost microscopic, only a few thou at the most.
Re-dowel means exactly what it says. We used big taper dowels that were drilled and tapped for extraction and insertion with a slide hammer. We just re-reamed the holes very carefully with a big taper reamer and let the existing taper dowels in a little bit further. If your machine has parallel dowels you’ll need to re-ream the holes a size bigger and make new dowels. Taper are obviously the way to go.

Regards and off to my bed, Tyrone.
Understand, Thanks. If one were to re-scrape the column is it correct to assume you would proceed as follows:
  1. Scrape column ways flat & coplaner
  2. Fit and align head to column
  3. Align spindle to long bed way as you described
  4. Scrape bedways flat and coplaner
  5. Scrape and align saddle
  6. Scrape and align table
Thanks
Mark
 

Richard King

Diamond
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Location
Cottage Grove, MN 55016
Number 1 would be Level and align the machine base.

When I rebuild the machines I started at the base, then the saddle and then the table. I had the column off the base and scraped it laying horizontally on the flor on 3 -points. Scraping it standing up would be a pain. Per what Tyrone wrote you would scrape the head in so when you trammed the head above and below the head from the spindle the spindle would be pointing up so as it wears it gets better - in 36" if it was plus (on the indicator) at the top .001 to .002" that would be good. Most slab cutters are only about 8" . You would have tested to be sure the spindle, quill and spindle bearing were good first. Keith Rucker is now rebuilding a HBM on You Tube. Here is one --
 








 
Top