Lucas 41 HBM head alignment issue

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

You shouldn’t really need to re-scrape the column. I can’t remember ever having to do that. By their very nature the the column ways don’t get the same wear and tear as the other ways. Just a good stoning will usually do the job. Maybe fill in some scores if the ways have fired up. If it’s really bad it should be a job for the slideways grinding companies. Scraping a column in situ isn’t for the faint hearted ( ie me at 73 years of age ). Sounds like Rich is still up for it.

Get the spindle frame ( head to you ) set correctly on the column. We used to have the trammel set so the spindle frame is pointing down slightly at the front. Say 0.001“ in a 30“ trammel. This allows for a good few years wear before any further adjustments are needed. It will gradually wear to perfectly level and then through to start to dip at the back again eventually.

Let’s assume you’ve got the bed bolted down on a good foundation. With a judicious use of the holding down bolts and Jack screws you should be able to level the bed straight even if it is a bit worn. “ Bend it straight “ as we used to say. You need to level the bed before you do anything at all to be honest. That is step number 1.

Once we are in that position the saddle needs to be fitted. Swing trammel the master way from the spindle, make the trammel as big as you can. I used a slip gauge between the way and DTI to avoid shocking the clock. 0 to 0 is what you are aiming for. You also need to check from the long ways up onto the saddle ways with a finger clock set in a height gauge. In an ideal world you will have 4 ”0” s, one on each corner. You are unlikely to be so lucky on an old machine. Correcting these alignments usually needs the scraper to come out again. On an old machine the saddle ways onto the bed ways will be worn at the front because of the tendency of operators to put work on the front of the table.

When all this done correctly the table needs to be fitted to the saddle. Same again, trammel the table using the centre tee slot if you can. We had special tools to do this. Failing that use the tee slot nearest the edge of the table. At the same time you need to clock from the saddle ways up to the table top in four positions. On each corner. Again 4 “0”s would be great but very unlikely. As with the saddle the front way will be more worn than the rear one because of operator bad habits. More scraping I’m afraid. Obviously you scrape the moving elements and not the fixed ones.

When all that is done your borer should be fit for use.
There are things I’ve missed out like setting the keeper strips etc but I’m hungry now, time for my tea,

Best of luck with all and regards Tyrone.

 

[hope]

I know that this machine has a lot of wear. I did not know it had been worked on like I found out after I bought it. Some one had tried to rebuild this machine or patch it. They had cut out the ways in the bottom of the saddle and had glued and pinned in phenolic. The rulon was laid on it. It was not glued in and there were no oil groves or holes so oil did not get to the ways on the bed. This did a number on the ways on the bed .The top on the front way of the bed was the worst . I dismantled the table and saddle because they were not getting oil. this is when I found the problems. The saddle was so tight that you could not crank the handle without a great deal of effort. I had a job to do for a customer and I needed this machine. I replaced the phenolic that was in there with what devit machinery sold to me, then applied the moglice on the bed ways at the end of the machine where they were in the best shape. I placed the saddle on top, all I was instructed by devit machinery. When all was done I took an indicator and measured from the bed to the top of the table and it was the same on all four corners. I realize that I need more precision tools to work with. I do not know how to explain what I have got any better. Yes I do need better tools to measure with and will have to get them in order to do this job correctly. But what I have has given me an Idea of what is off . I do not have any experience in scraping and alignment. and will have to learn as I go. That is why I am asking you all .

Richard I have been watching Kieth Rucker scraping in his boring mill, which is almost identical to mine. He has not done the head yet.
My biggest concern with scraping is alignment.
I have leveled up the machine with a starrett precision level .0005 per foot. When I had the machine leveled up I found 2 places to set the level to level the column. It was right on the money.
Whoever worked on this machine before I got it also worked on the head. I can see the rulon sticking out from under the ways on the head.
Before I remove the head I need to know how to bring it into alignment. Right now I do not have the tools to spot and do not know what the specs are to bring the ways in the head to. Plus there are 4 shafts that run vertically thru it. The ways look pretty good on the column except for the back of the square way where the cap rides. I did put shim stock between the square way and the head on the front right side as one is facing the machine. I used the front of the table. ( Not the best according to everybody but it gives to me an idea as to what is going on. I will need to purchase larger squares to measure vertically and a straight edge to get into a v way.) The shim stock .008 actually brought the head in within .002 from side to side. This is where it is off . It is off .020 from side to side in 20 inches. Vertically I have not checked it except for measuring from the spindle to the table. Which was less then .001 in 20 inches.
On the left side of the head is a v way. There is a gibb opposite the v which pulls the < tight and lines up the head . The right is a square way. I had thought I could work some material off of the flat part or the < way to make the head swing over to line it up. The front of the < way is flat with the square way on the right of the head.
I am not sure I can tackle doing the whole machine and had thought it would be best to work on trying to scrape on the rulon on the flat part of the < then to get into the cast iron. I had thought if I did this when the head is assembled on the column the gib being tightened would cause the back of the < way to pull the head back on the flat part of the < way swinging the head into alignment. I am sure I would have to work on the flat way on the right but who knows.

 

[Richard King]

Do you have a height gage or you can make one using a Mag base sitting on a 2 3 4 block. You can get a rough idea by extending out the spindle above the table . Bring the saddle up close to the column. Then use the height gage to check the top of the spindle top dead center on both ends of the spindle. I have a spec book I can email you. email me. [email protected]. When you trammed the side of the table, did you indicate the side of the table first by running it back and forth? If that is say .001 or .002" in the length of of the table side then tramming it should be a good enough to get a good idea. Take the mag base and put it on the quill and put the indicator of the spindle top and then the side. push and pull the spindle and check to see if there is any slop and then move the mag to the top and lift or slide a 2 x 4 under it and pry it up lightly. check for slop. also you can micrommeter the spindle length. If those checks are bad then the hear is probably like you said. Off. I have a friend who is a retired rebuilder near Roanoke VA and another in TN who could probably help you. I can email them too. I can cc them if you email me about the spec book.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Never buy a machine you haven’t seen run, even if the Pope is the vendor. Been there, done that, never again. I remember working on a bigger, more modern machine than that one. It cost £15,000 back in the day, “ a bargain “ the customer told me. He spent that much again to get it running. When we eventually powered it up, this machine had 13 electric motors, the only thing that worked properly was the light for the vernier scales !
According to the customer the salesman told him it was all running perfectly before it was dismantled.

You need to swing trammel the spindle frame to the column ways before you remove the spindle frame. At least you’ll know how much scraping you’ll need to do to get the spindle frame square on the column.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[Richard King]

A friend of mine called me up and asked me about buying a Lucas HBM from a dealer in Ohio I think it was. I told him to go look at it before buying it and trucking it to his Oklahoma plant. He said I talked to the guy and he sent me some pictures. I runs good. I said get a coach ticket for $450.00 round trip, have the dealer pick you up and then drive you back to the airport. Make it a day trip. He didn't listen. Bought it, trucked it and when he got it he had me go look at it. There were bird nests in the column mouse nests and mouse poop in the electrical box, the wires were chewed...he got screwed over. Could have spent a days time and $450.00 and discovered it was a BIG LIE sale. Next time you buy a car...just look at pictures and don't take it for a test drive.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

sale.

10/10.
I remember going to another customer who’d bought a big cylindrical grinder ( maybe 15 ft b.c. ) without actually seeing it running. He needed a machine that would also grind short bearing tapers at the end of the components. The salesman assured him it would. The machine had a camber bar for grinding the camber on rolls. The salesman told my customer that he could use that to create tapers. When I installed the machine I had to tell him that he could grind cambers but not tapers.
Regards, Tyrone.

 

[hope]

I am ok with what I bought. I just couldn't see the rulon under the ways.
it ran quiet, all the speeds and feeds worked. I could see it had some wear. The rapid didn't work. I thought it was functional and in some ways it is, But with the head out it is not good for anything that is precision. I would like some higher spindle speeds. The highest speed is 360 rpm Not good for holes under 1/2 inch or carbide endmills under an inch, let alone small highspeed endmills.
I have in it with the hauling around $2,500.00 in the machine. Maybe another $1,700.00 in repairs on the saddle and table. This does not count my labor. I think I will be ok once I get the head right.
I do have a 24 inch height gage and can measure from the top of the spindle. as you have suggested. I can set a parallel on top of the table, indicate that in and then check the head like one would tram a bridgeport head. I can take the height gage and do the vertical. I forgot that i had a 24 inch height gage. I have already measured from the table to the top of the spindle with an indicator on a stand on the end and next to the head. It had the same measurement over 20 inches in length. I was surprised that it did. I did push the spindle by hand to see movement and could tell that it has wear. I will have to check that with more pressure then just my hand. I do have the gibb on the < adjusted up a little tight on the head pulling the back side of the head as tight as I can to hold the head as true to the ways on the column as I can. I will set this up tomorrow with the parallel and the height gage and try these tests that you have suggested and get back with you.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I am ok with what I bought. I just couldn't see the rulon under the ways.
it ran quiet, all the speeds and feeds worked. I could see it had some wear. The rapid didn't work. I thought it was functional and in some ways it is, But with the head out it is not good for anything that is precision. I would like some higher spindle speeds. The highest speed is 360 rpm Not good for holes under 1/2 inch or carbide endmills under an inch, let alone small highspeed endmills.
I have in it with the hauling around $2,500.00 in the machine. Maybe another $1,700.00 in repairs on the saddle and table. This does not count my labor. I think I will be ok once I get the head right.
I do have a 24 inch height gage and can measure from the top of the spindle. as you have suggested. I can set a parallel on top of the table, indicate that in and then check the head like one would tram a bridgeport head. I can take the height gage and do the vertical. I forgot that i had a 24 inch height gage. I have already measured from the table to the top of the spindle with an indicator on a stand on the end and next to the head. It had the same measurement over 20 inches in length. I was surprised that it did. I did push the spindle by hand to see movement and could tell that it has wear. I will have to check that with more pressure then just my hand. I do have the gibb on the < adjusted up a little tight on the head pulling the back side of the head as tight as I can to hold the head as true to the ways on the column as I can. I will set this up tomorrow with the parallel and the height gage and try these tests that you have suggested and get back with you.

Be very careful of over adjusting the gibs. It’s easy to get a “ fire up “ on the ways. Then you have a real problem. You can also tear the head off the gib, big problem again, especially if the gib gets stuck
Short of re-scraping the fast angle on the spindle frame what I’ve done in the past is remove the gibs, very carefully Jack up the tail end of the spindle frame slightly past true by a thou or two, then re-fit the gibs using your scraper. When you remove the Jack the spindle frame should drop back to be more or less true. it’ll work for a while anyway. It’s a bit of a bodge up but it works.
On the UK machines I spent most of my time on the spindle frames had pretty large fast angles and several gibs in various places. You could cheat a little bit.

On re-reading your previous post - there’s not much point checking the spindle from the table top until you’re sure that 1) the saddle has four “ 0 “ on each corner measuring up from the long travel slideways . 2) the table top has four “ 0 “ on each corner measuring up from the saddle ways.
Other wise it’s all just guess work. You could very easily have two wrongs making a right.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[hope]

I have measured from the saddle to the bed and it was 0 when I had applied the moglice. When the table was put on it was still within .001 measuring from the top of the ways to the top of the table. Now when you move the saddle down the bed that changes. The table will tilt as much as .005 as you travel towards the head. If I measure from the bottom of the ways to the top of the table where I applied the moglice where it measures 0. from the top of the ways . From the bottom I get this. I will use the last two decimal places .093 --- .097 that is the front bed way . The back bed way is .088 --- .091 This changes down the bed as I move the saddle towards the head.
To check the head I can place a parallel across the ways and use a height gage as a square to check the vertical and within 7 inches I am out .002 spinning the spindle like traming in a bridgeport mill. Sideways it is out .01 in 18 inches. Moving the head up and down on the column indicator moves .015 and opposite going down. The head is shifting around. I saw in the spec book how to Check the head s tram vertically with the column. I will have to make something like what is in the book to do that.
Thank you Richard King for the specs. It shows how to do these checks that I need to do

 

[Richard King]

Many times you can tighten or loosen the far right leveling screws to tip the column in or out when measuring a square, The low area of the base ways that the saddle rides on is worn so bad you will have to have it planned or ground like K Rucker did. There isn't much you can do or cheat when its bad. You could shim your part to compensate for the ware, that's about all you can do.

 

[hope]

On the bed ways when I measure the thickness, the wear does not make sense to me.
I will list the measurements here starting with the back bed way from left to right. approx. 12 inches apart from end to end.
1.442 -1.442 - 1.437 - 1.437 - 1.439 - 1.441 - 1.441 - 1.442 - 1.442
front bed way
1.448 -1.444 - 1.443 - 1.444 - 1.445 - 1.446 - 1.447 - 1.448 - 1.448
There is a .006 difference in the thickness of the front and back way. Shouldn't the numbers be the same on the ends of the ways?

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

On the bed ways when I measure the thickness, the wear does not make sense to me.
I will list the measurements here starting with the back bed way from left to right. approx. 12 inches apart from end to end.
1.442 -1.442 - 1.437 - 1.437 - 1.439 - 1.441 - 1.441 - 1.442 - 1.442
front bed way
1.448 -1.444 - 1.443 - 1.444 - 1.445 - 1.446 - 1.447 - 1.448 - 1.448
There is a .006 difference in the thickness of the front and back way. Shouldn't the numbers be the same on the ends of the ways?

Given it’s an 80 year old machine those figures don’t seem that bad to me. The ways would have been planed and then scraped back then, no slideways grinders. The keeper strips would be adjusted to suit the variations between front and back.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[hope]

If I were to try to scrape the top side of the bed ways, would I not have to make both ways the same thickness ?
The outside of the back way is planed. would I use that to measure from when scraping the front side of the front way?

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Not necessarily. When you are satisfied that the saddle is as good as you can get it. Four “ 0“ on the corners ideally. You would measure from the area were the keeper strips fit on the underside of the saddle to the underside of of the bed and adjust the keeper strips to suit. Using the back edge of the rear way would be ok to use as a straight edge if you have a means of measuring accurately from it. You seem to be expecting a lot from a machine that was built before the 1939-45 war. Anything like that over here would have been scrapped 30 or 40 years ago. Either that or sent out for a full re-machine. Scraping the whole lot would be seen as commercially not acceptable.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[Richard King]

You have to decide if you want to use it that way or rebuild it. Pulling it apart and having everything planned or ground. Bed (base) an estimate is $15,000.00 the column $10,000.00
You could scrape it by hand it would take weeks if not months. Buy tools like K Rucker did. did...estimate on tools $10,000.00.
If it were my bed and I only used the machine 1 or 2 times a month, I would leave it alone. If you felt ambitious, I would take apart machine, clean it, paint it, re-do the lube system, square cut the exposed ways, oil 1/2 moon flake the unexposed ways, touch up the gibs and hold downs and use it. If you have a lot of time and money go for it.

 

[hope]

Richard what do you mean by square cut the exposed ways?
I have had the machine apart as far as the table and saddle , cleaned up. and got the oil going to it, touched up the gibs , built up the saddle ways wit moglice, and replaced leadscrew nut, for the saddle I have even put a dro on it and repaired the rapid I guess that for now I will try to work with the head to try to bring it back in.
As far as tools I have a 24 inch surface plate A hand scraped taft pierce straightedge that is shaped like an I beam, and an anderson hand scraper 1 inch wide with a highspeed steel blade. I do not have a surface plate or a straightedge that are 8 feet long nor do I have a power scraper and have never scraped in the ways of a machine. I think that I would like to try.

Tyrone I have a lot of old machine tools. Some date back to the late 1800s and go all the way up to the 1980s
their value to me is that I like the older machine tools and enjoy using them. I am retired and have a shop next to my home. Even though it is old, it gives to me some extra income and it is something that I like doing. It also allows me to fix the equipment on my farm.

 

[Richard King]

Look at #83 of this link , Bruce square cut his test piece and then square cut his machine to increase the oil pockets. Square Cut is uniform diagonal scrape marks that average .0005" deep. The work Bruce did is a Sticky at the top of this forum. It's a grinder but ways are ways. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/studer-rhu-450-from-the-1960s.343863/page-5

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Richard what do you mean by square cut the exposed ways?
I have had the machine apart as far as the table and saddle , cleaned up. and got the oil going to it, touched up the gibs , built up the saddle ways wit moglice, and replaced leadscrew nut, for the saddle I have even put a dro on it and repaired the rapid I guess that for now I will try to work with the head to try to bring it back in.
As far as tools I have a 24 inch surface plate A hand scraped taft pierce straightedge that is shaped like an I beam, and an anderson hand scraper 1 inch wide with a highspeed steel blade. I do not have a surface plate or a straightedge that are 8 feet long nor do I have a power scraper and have never scraped in the ways of a machine. I think that I would like to try.

Tyrone I have a lot of old machine tools. Some date back to the late 1800s and go all the way up to the 1980s
their value to me is that I like the older machine tools and enjoy using them. I am retired and have a shop next to my home. Even though it is old, it gives to me some extra income and it is something that I like doing. It also allows me to fix the equipment on my farm.

That’s fine matey. I can’t speak for Rich but from my point of view I find it difficult to offer useful advice regarding your project because it’s not something I ever came across in my working life. The customers I had were commercial organisations with targets to attain. Time was money. Machines had to be up and running asap. Re-building machines was a means to an end and not just a hobby. I remember the Managing Director of one customer chiding me over the time it was taking to get a borer up to spec. He said “ I’m in the rubber machine re-building game not the machine tool rebuilding game son”. Nobody would ever seriously consider re-scraping the bed of a boring machine. It would be re- machined either in house or sent out to a specialist bedway machinist. It just wouldn’t be economically viable.
This can sometimes be an issue on this site The difference of emphasis between the guys who do/did this for a living and the guys who are just running a fun project.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[lucky7]

^^^ so true. And for guys like me who do it for fun, even little things like a Bport make more sense to scrape rather than pay to send out for milling/planing and grinding. Time is money for a business, but time away from my work in my pleasant shop with good tunes playing is priceless.

on edit- would like to say how much I’ve learned from and enjoyed this thread.

 

[hope]

This Lucas hbm is important to me. It opens the door to bring in more business. A lot of jobs that I get have to be done horizontally. They are to big for a vertical or a horizontal mill. In my business I try to specialize in jobs that other shops in my area cant do or is not profitable for them. I cater mainly to job shops to compliment them as an asset, not as direct competition. I do not go to various companies looking for work. When I get work I try to do the job to the best of my ability. It is not only good for me, but my customer as well and this opens up the door for him to get more work. In turn more work comes back to me. I have used a bridgeport with a 90* head often and also a horizontal mill but my work is growing to where it is not big enough anymore. This is more than just a hobby.