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Makino PS 105 vs Okuma genos M560 v for mold type works

I have a p200 and a new p300 560 and the new p300 control is crazy fast. We run some parts with fancy organic curves and found that any imperfection from the model (these are the ones that you have to scroll like mad on the model to even see) would show up on the part. The 200 not quite as much. A mold shop in town is running at least a couple of 560s and seem to be very happy with them.
 
I have a p200 and a new p300 560 and the new p300 control is crazy fast. We run some parts with fancy organic curves and found that any imperfection from the model (these are the ones that you have to scroll like mad on the model to even see) would show up on the part. The 200 not quite as much. A mold shop in town is running at least a couple of 560s and seem to be very happy with them.

Is that with SuperNURBS or without?

I hear the P300 is crazy fast on it's own, so I'm very curious as to what the advantage of the ($12k) SuperNURBS option is on the most modern controller iteration.
 
My only comment is that 12k or even 14k rpm's is nowhere near enough for mold work.

hy :) yes, you are true ... but you may use an amplifier for finishing

also, with an amplifier, you may hit rpms lower or greater than spindle_max_rpm

max spindle rpm is not there to reach it actually, but it is a measure of spindle capability :
... wide range
... more power at lower rpm, when compared to a spindle that has lower_max_rpm

if i would consider roughing and finishing molds on same machine, i would definetly go for a wide_range_spindle, and not for a high_rpm_spindle :)

wide_range_spindles do not compromosis torque

high_rpm_spindle compromises torque, so to gain speed :)
 
I have a p200 and a new p300 560 and the new p300 control is crazy fast

And you may actually push it even more ... depends

HiG is customizable, and it requires that the mill is anchored to the ground and good foundation

also HiG may be disabled at cnc delivered, thus official state is : disabled when delivered :)

in other words, rapids can be accelerated even more, but enabling this function means awarenes from the client :)
 
so I'm very curious as to what the advantage of the ($12k) SuperNURBS option is on the most modern controller iteration

as new components are there, supernurbs costs increases

generally, reaction time is shorter and so price is higher

at such a level, a better nurbs procedure is more stable at same ouput ( desired ) accuracy, when compared to an older control generation :)

thus, on newer controls, you may decrease the quality of the input toolpath ( for example useless discretization ), without altering machining quality :)
 
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Floyd29 - try to find shops more less like yours in size, influence, etc., that have one or the other of these machines, and ask them how support has been. This may be difficult to do, but worth a try I think.
 
Is that with SuperNURBS or without?

I hear the P300 is crazy fast on it's own, so I'm very curious as to what the advantage of the ($12k) SuperNURBS option is on the most modern controller iteration.

SuperNurbs allows for faster feeds and more accurate positioning to the programmed position than even the Hi-Cut Pro can do.
When you need to produce an ultra smooth profile.

How it was explained to me was that Hi-Cut Pro was really good for XY moves, and SuperNurbs is good if you add in Z moves to those XY moves.

Here is a video comparing an Okuma to a Makino,the Okuma is 20% faster.

Okuma SuperNurbs (MB-56VA) vs Makino SGI (V33) - YouTube
 
hy Mtndew :) i know that video for some time ...

but only now i see that Okuma's concurent is a Makino :)

there is no better thread in the world, where you could have posted that video :)
 
And you may actually push it even more ... depends

HiG is customizable, and it requires that the mill is anchored to the ground and good foundation

also HiG may be disabled at cnc delivered, thus official state is : disabled when delivered :)

in other words, rapids can be accelerated even more, but enabling this function means awarenes from the client :)

HiG is on by default. Fastest axis acceleration enabled.

You can disable HiG and you will get the lowest axis acceleration.

You can also turn on HiG low vibration mode. You can set the percentage of max acceleration for each axis.

HiG is only for rapid moves.

HiG has been around for a while. My 2005 MCV4020 OSP100E control has HiG. It's not mentioned in the manual, but the machine has it.
 
HiG is on by default

hello Edster :) i looked again over my trials data for HiG and over discussion emails with dealer

i dont have nothing written about HiG state at machine delivery, but i know that after trials i have shorten the rapids considerably, and i remember that dealer said that i must edit/activate those parameters my self

there had been some differences between defaults_showed_in_manuals and real_parameters_value_on_the_machine, but i dont remember those anymore

You can disable HiG and you will get the lowest axis acceleration

[ HiG off ] + [ ipw = 0 ] delivers rapids as fast as [ HiG on ] + [ tunned to the max ]

*ipw : in position width :) i know this trick from a veteran

you may get same rapid duration by messing with ipw in a way that does not involve faster acc/decc paliers like HiG, thus same time with smoother movement

when you combine bought of them, machine starts to move agressively : shake it baby :)


Hello, today i runned a rough face milling program :

___________ipw > duration
0.003 .. 0.010 > 1:30
___________0.9 > 1:23
_____________0 > 1:18



it can be used not only for rapids, but also when cutting ; however, caution is required in this last case, so to modify ipw according to operation


I have had success in decreasing cycle time by "changing accuracy" of the machine. for example if you are on a horizontal mill and you rapid from left side to right side, you will see significant delays at the end of every rapid move "back, over, in" while the machine confirms that the DIFF is small enough to proceed with the next block. This can be helped by changing the "in position window".
What I did to make this easy is to create a sub routine that changes the values and then assign it to a G-code macro. I used G119 and G120 and assigned them to the subs OSLOW and OFAST. Switch to G119, cut, switch to G120, rapid. I knocked over 3 minutes out of a long horizontal program that was an hour long.

Here is the code:

$RAPID.LIB%
(SET G119 TO OSLOW AND G120 TO OFAST)
(THIS WILL CHANGE IN POSITION WINDOW AND WILL HELP SPEED UP RAPID MOVES)
OFAST
VINPX=0.0 VINPY=0.0 VINPZ=0.0 (VINPA=0.0)
RTS
OSLOW
VINPX=.0001 VINPY=.0001 VINPZ=.0001 (VINPA=.003)
RTS
%

This was installed as a library file and my post was modified to add in the G codes when switching back and forth between feed and rapid.

I have revealed another "ancient Japanese secret" to you, so please send root beer! ;-)

Best regards



other speed up settings:
... bit 46.0, that triggers non linear interpolation for the normal rapid
... bit 90.2, that triggers non linear interpolation for the HiG


things can go pretty customizable, but the problem is that most, if not all, HiG parameters are bit controlled, thus you can not toogle them from code :) this means that machine tunning involves intervantion in parameter area, and messing with things that change state @ power up

this is good for mass production, and so far i only hit long setups on lathes :)

however,
ipw is customizable from code, through VINP* variables, and it is a time booster, if it is used properly : this means customizing parametrical code, with VINP* in the right spots :)

maybe in the future, osp will allow bits to be edited from code, but i doubt it :) kindly !
 
Floyd29 - try to find shops more less like yours in size, influence, etc., that have one or the other of these machines, and ask them how support has been. This may be difficult to do, but worth a try I think.

Hi Bryan,

We finally got opportunity to visit a small mould shop which has Makino PS 105.
They are getting excellent support from Makino as Makino's head office is in the same city.
Overall, we felt Makino's support is far more than any other company in India, so far. Application Engineers are well exposed die & mold type work.

However, we feel Okuma is better machine because of their H frame & better controller but their support in India still seems to be a question mark. Okuma is now willing to expand in India in a big way. But at the moment, Okuma team in India is small & they often take time to respond & that somehow doesn't give a good feeling. I have given them trial cut job to which they haven't given any response since 1 month.

Makino does look like a peace of mind for our Area but we are finding it hard to leave Okuma as it is better machine for the same money. Need to make a choice in 15 days now..
 
Hi Bryan,

We finally got opportunity to visit a small mould shop which has Makino PS 105.
They are getting excellent support from Makino as Makino's head office is in the same city.
Overall, we felt Makino's support is far more than any other company in India, so far. Application Engineers are well exposed die & mold type work.

However, we feel Okuma is better machine because of their H frame & better controller but their support in India still seems to be a question mark. Okuma is now willing to expand in India in a big way. But at the moment, Okuma team in India is small & they often take time to respond & that somehow doesn't give a good feeling. I have given them trial cut job to which they haven't given any response since 1 month.

Makino does look like a peace of mind for our Area but we are finding it hard to leave Okuma as it is better machine for the same money. Need to make a choice in 15 days now..

If you don't mind me asking, how did the prices come in at?

The PS-105 is orderable from our area now too, but haven't got exact quotes or more detailed brochures but I always liked the approach of the PS-95 and 65 as they made an effort to throw a lot of stuff in - inclusive of the price + Makino's belief in a pretty hunky spindle as being a useful and productive "Idea". I was going to get a quote for PS-105 locally. The test parts for prismatic accuracy should be pretty damn good (in the right hands) etc. but really have zero - idea as to 3d contouring on this platform?

PS65 and PS1�5 Vertical Machining Centers | CTE Publications

Not 100% sure what the P 5 control (from Makino) offers in terms of capability, they claim it's faster... Than what they used to put on a regular PS-95? They claim various improvements on the PS-105 but I think they are looking to take a "Bite" out of Haas's market over their SS models. And like what Jashley and others are saying F3 and F5 is pretty much the Bees-knees for mold work (kind of thing) but at the same time they don't want to make the PS-105 too good in respect of F3 or F5. So that's why the Okuma Genos (M 560v) usually seems to be pretty awesome "Compromise", (in that middle space) and yet in large measure is an uncompromising machine/product.

Does MAZAK have much of a presence in India where you are?

@Floyd29 Good luck on your 15 day count down :-)
 
Not 100% sure what the P 5 control (from Makino) offers in terms of capability, they claim it's faster... Than what they used to put on a regular PS-95? They claim various improvements on the PS-105 but I think they are looking to take a "Bite" out of Haas's market over their SS models. And like what Jashley and others are saying F3 and F5 is pretty much the Bees-knees for mold work (kind of thing) but at the same time they don't want to make the PS-105 too good in respect of F3 or F5. So that's why the Okuma Genos (M 560v) usually seems to be pretty awesome "Compromise", (in that middle space) and yet in large measure is an uncompromising machine/product.

I'm straying from the original topic a little, but I hope this will be useful...

I *think* the Pro-5 control is built on Fanuc 31i hardware, whereas the Pro-3 is built on the 0i hardware. I could be wrong about that, but would bet a cheap steak dinner on it anyway... :)

Makino's lineup still confuses me though. They have the PS series, which is far too high of quality, options & build quality to be truly considered "entry level." And they're certainly not priced that way either... Yet, I don't think it's fair to call them a mold machine. Even Makino calls them a "job shop production VMC" or something of the like.

And then you have the F series machines, which is a newer class of machine from Makino. My understanding was that these were sort of meant to be a compromise - basically a high end machine, for those who didn't quite need a V-series machine.

I have no idea where the F & V series machines are priced though, and what truly separates them.

And admittedly, the line between Okuma's Genos & MB-V series machines has become quite blurred too...





--------------------------------------------





Regarding Super-Nurbs, and what Makino calls their version - "SGI" - I believe the point of these software functions is for toolpath smoothing. Meaning if you have some microscopic hiccup in the 3D surface - how do you want the machine to handle it...? These "Nurbs" software options allow the machine to compute a smooth line through the hiccup, to produce a truly smooth surface.

The issue with doing that, is that the machine has to did-obey the true G-code, which means you have to assign a few things to it. (I don't really need to explain this to you somuch Camerman, knowing your computer science background, but I offer this up in case others are wondering...) If you want the machine to "iron out the kinks" so to speak, then it has to do a lot more work internally.

Meaning, in a traditional CNC system, the machine would simply have to translate the G-code into motion control commands, and make sure the axes are going where the G-code tells them to. The 1st round of conventional "high speed machining" options, simply deals with axis accel & decel adjustments, to make sure the machine actually holds true to the toolpath, without excessive following error. I would imagine that Okuma's "Hi-Cut G" falls into this category, as would Fanuc's AICC mode.

The smoothing options however, would actually allow the machine to adjust the toolpath itself - deviating from what is actually commanded via the G-code - to smooth the toolpath & correct for these hiccups in the CAD models & corresponding G-code. To make a smooth surface, the control would have to plot the commanded toolpath, look for points along the path which fall outside the norm (which means there would be a host of filtering options as well) and then deviate the code, re-calculate the "smooth" toolpath, and then work out the new motion control stuff, and then apply that 1st-order axis accel/decel control too. That's a lot of processing going on there...

This video from Mitsubishi shows the concept pretty well. It's only a quick blurb at 2:18, but it's a very quick visual that explains what these smoothing options are all about. With that kind of understanding, I can certainly understand the up-charge to customers who truly _need_ it...

LITZ DV-7�� with MITSUBISHI CNC (TIMTOS 2�13)Copyright(C) MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC TAIWAN - YouTube




------------------------------------------





Regarding the comparison video between the "Super-Nurbs vs. SGI" that was posted earlier... I've seen that video before, and I don't know if it's truly a fair comparison. Maybe it is, but again, too many variables to draw a concrete conclusion. Were the accuracy settings for both control modes set the same? Maybe, but we don't know... And honestly, I kind of wonder if it's truly even relevant. Most places running that kind of toolpath aren't going to be terribly concerned with the cycle time of their super-finishing cycles.

1- These types of long finishing cycles are going to be running unattended, possibly even overnight when no one is there, and the lights are out. If one machine finishes 40 minutes before the other it won't matter. Both machines will sit until the day-shift clocks in the next morning... :\

2- A faster finishing cycle doesn't = a better finish. A little extra time in the finishing cycle may mean less time at the polishing bench later. In the machine, running unattended doesn't cost anything extra. A toolmaker polishing a mold cavity at the bench most certainly does...

Now, if they ran that test, and then followed with true profilometer readings of both surfaces, then that would be a convincing argument. Even moreso, if they compared how much polishing time each machine's part required to achieve the final finish.
 
.....I *think* the Pro-5 control is built on Fanuc 31i hardware, whereas the Pro-3 is built on the 0i hardware. I could be wrong about that, but would bet a cheap steak dinner on it anyway... :)

Pro 5 is built on 31i, or 32i controls depending on the machine it is running. It may also be built on 30i hardware, but I have not seen that. Pro 3 is obsolete since ~2004 and was built on 16i hardware. PS machines are Pro P controls. I have not heard what platform the Pro P is built on but it could very well be the 0iF.



Makino's lineup still confuses me though. They have the PS series, which is far too high of quality, options & build quality to be truly considered "entry level." And they're certainly not priced that way either... Yet, I don't think it's fair to call them a mold machine. Even Makino calls them a "job shop production VMC" or something of the like.

My understanding is the PS series is targeted at the job shop that wants, and can afford, a really really good machine, but is not ready to step up to top of the line just yet.

If you asked a Makino engineer about a PS machine as a mold machine, they would tell you they have better machines for that application. Not that a PS can not do mold work, just there are better choices.
 
Yea but there is always a better machine for the application..:) Price has not been brought up, but I got a quote on a PS95 in July of last year for 176. I also got a quote on the 560 at the same time but cant find it of course, but seems it was quite a bit cheaper
Gary
 
Yea but there is always a better machine for the application..:) Price has not been brought up, but I got a quote on a PS95 in July of last year for 176. I also got a quote on the 560 at the same time but cant find it of course, but seems it was quite a bit cheaper
Gary

Quote I got for PS95 (list price) was around $145K But over time managed to "See" a deal that was of the order of $125K (for the machine with standard options (a lot thrown in) which included things like flood coolant, conveyor and 400PSI TSC, jog pendent etc. etc. ).

The PS-105 is built on the PS-65 frame (longer travels/lighter machine by comparison than the PS-95),i.e. not built on the PS-95 frame. Might be more competitive price point.

M-560V is a beautifuly built machine but the essential extras do add up a bit (if you are hamstrung budget wise). XD341 showed some nice imagery / work that shows that mold type finishes on relatively large work pieces are certainly possible on the M-560V... That was an eye opener/pretty cool.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Kicking the MAZAK ball around,

Anyone seen or run a FJV-250? Double column type machine ? [Kinda like the M-560v?],(don't know how long they have been around)? Excellent precision and good ergonomics.

FJV-25 II

Also for a machine that can do prismatic and 3d contouring pretty well @OP/Floyd29 the Mazak VCN 530c ? (They seem nicely built (or at least the one's I have seen more recently), I'm not a fan of the ergonomics/bad back/have to reach further into a machine than what I would like, but otherwise really sweet. (On the pricier side for a C frame, but 3d contouring/some kinds of mold work certainly possible; control is set up for that unlike the Makino PS series).

I think as mentioned earlier with advanced mold work, (as mentioned by the venerable Milland post#2) thermal compensation is probably the biggest issue but may not be such an issue for the type of molds @Floyd29 you are working with (smaller surfaces) ?
 








 
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