Math in Manufacturing

[EPAIII]

"We are trying to sort out what math is needed by technicians in the manufacturing workplace..."

To that I ask, WHY? Why on earth would you do that? What purpose would it serve?

Are you trying to distill an education for those "technicians in the manufacturing workplace" down to ONLY what is strictly thought to be necessary? Wouldn't that hamstring those technicians?

In addition to doing the work myself, I have been responsible for hiring other people for those jobs and the very last thing that I would want in a potential employee would be that they ONLY know what is absolutely necessary. A candidate with an education like that would be the very first one who I would eliminate from the pile of applicants. And I would take note of the school where he/she was taught and keep it in the back of my mind.

Some years ago I saw an example of just teaching what was absolutely necessary. It was a course that lead to a professional license via a examination. The trade school had several instructors who had deliberately taken the exam and failed. That way they could know the questions and possible answers on each version of the test. They ONLY taught the answers that were on the tests. In some cases they actually taught an incorrect answer because that was what produced a passing grade. I had the opportunity to sit in on the class and all that was missing was the chair and whip. I also sat in on a discussion of the instructors where they tried to figure out the desired answers. Not the correct answers, but the desired ones that produced a correct grade. They guaranteed that the student would pass the test. But they passed little or no knowledge on to that student. What kind of reference is that to put on a job application?

Extreme example? Yes, perhaps it is. But the essentials are all there. Teaching only what is necessary only informs, it does not educate.

Frankly, in my opinion, such a study is not only useless, but harmful. Harmful to the individual student and harmful to any company that would hire him/her. And ultimately harmful to any school that would employ it.

Friends, we have a new National Science Foundation-funded project called "Needed Math"

We are trying to sort out what math is needed by technicians in the manufacturing workplace (as opposed to the math that is taught in community college technical or applied math courses).

We're developing a 40-item survey that has been vetted by industrialists but would like to pilot test it with additional colleagues……especially manufacturing technicians or instructors who teach courses for manufacturing technicians.

The survey would take you about 20 minutes. We're not asking anyone to do any of the math, just to tell us if each survey item is clear and relevant.

Might any of you be willing to assist us?

Thanks,
Michael Hacker
[email protected]

 

[boslab]

I’d have a go but I’m in the wrong country really, and metric, I had the displeasure or retraining graduates for 15 years, what college thought was useful, well wasn’t, it was given to them as work of a set “difficulty “ useful wasn’t considered, mad I know.
Mark

 

[DDoug]

Your federal tax dollars at work......

 

[plastikdreams]

You guys will complain about pretty much anything anymore lol

 

[Scottl]

Algebra, trig, geometry. Every government indoctrination center (public high school school to some) ought to teach it to every citizen. This is enough.

You left out calculus, which is usually taught in the senior year.

 

[KilrB]

Yes

 

[Joe Gwinn]

Our project is focused on the mathematics that manufacturing technicians (not engineers or programmers) need to be successful in the workplace.

Not so fast. Lots of machinists do program in G-code, to tell numerical-control machine tools how to make this or that.

Some also program microcontrollers, such as for electronic lead-screw implementation, but that's more advanced.

As others have said, the basic core is algebra, geometry, and trig for sure. Next would be 3D geometry and trig.

I'd suggest going through Machinery's Handbook and looking at all the math there as the defining example of what machinists need to understand.

 

[latheman78]

Anyone else remember siting in High School geometry class thinking, why the hell am I learning this? Especially proving a theorem or whatever they called them?

 

[latheman78]

I hate to admit this but...I haven't used subtraction in so long I forgot how to do it on paper...talk about feeling like a dumbass.

Thanks for sharing, I won't be so hard on myself for struggling to remember how to do something, if it has been a long time since I did it. The older I get the worse that gets.

 

[mhacker]

Hmmmm... An opportunity to give feedback to educators on what the future workforce needs? Instead of complaining about our educational system and the skills that kids lack, I'd be more than happy to give you 20 minutes of my time! How does one access said survey?

 

[mhacker]

Great thanks! We expect to have the pilot test survey ready in mid- to late- September. It will be sent via a link to whatever contact email you prefer. Appreciate the sentiment you expressed in your post.

 

[mhacker]

IMO, if you are using trig and algebra in your daily manufacturing duties then you would probably be offended if someone called you a "manufacturing technician".

I think there's a big disconnect with education systems portrayal of manufacturing opportunities.

It should really be broken down more like:

Anyone- Entry level button pushing type jobs.

Booksmart, formula memorization, strong sequential thought process, high level math- Desk engineering and programming.

Strong hands on and mechanical comprehension, strong spatial reasoning ability, moderate math skill- Machinist, production engineer, toolmaker.

What manufacturing role is applicable to an individual probably has more to do with how their brain is wired than what level of math they have been taught. IMO, it's not possible for people not wired for some of these jobs to be proficient at them. My wife can change peoples lives for the better just listening and talking to them. She can't parallel park a car or give driving directions. She would be as terrible in a manufacturing role as I would be in psychiatrics.

Above-entry level manufacturing roles require some solid math comprehension/ability.

 

[mhacker]

Interesting. I was struck by the comment that
“If you are using trig and algebra in your daily manufacturing duties then you would probably be offended if someone called you a "manufacturing technician" “.

Is it your perception that manufacturing technicians do not use trig or algebra on the job? Are two year technical college graduates placed in technician roles? They certainly are required to study trig and algebra in school. Do they need that math?

What roles do two-year college graduates typically assume in manufacturing (as opposed to jobs done by HS grads or four-year college grads)?

Also wanted to ask about your comment that “Above-entry level manufacturing roles require some solid math comprehension/ability.”

Are these folks considered to be technicians?

Michael

 

[mhacker]

Not so fast. Lots of machinists do program in G-code, to tell numerical-control machine tools how to make this or that.

Some also program microcontrollers, such as for electronic lead-screw implementation, but that's more advanced.

As others have said, the basic core is algebra, geometry, and trig for sure. Next would be 3D geometry and trig.

I'd suggest going through Machinery's Handbook and looking at all the math there as the defining example of what machinists need to understand.

 

[mhacker]

Point well taken. Would you be willing to help us pilot test our 40-item survey before we launch it? It would take about 20 minutes. It will be available in mid- to late-September.

Michael

 

[richard newman]

20 minutes? Not sure I have a 1/2 hour to spare....

 

[mhacker]

Thanks, Richard. Shall I contact you through the forum or would you prefer through email?
Michael

 

[Joe Gwinn]

Point well taken. Would you be willing to help us pilot test our 40-item survey before we launch it? It would take about 20 minutes. It will be available in mid- to late-September.

Michael

Won't be online then. Also, 40 questions won't really cover it.

Machinery's Handbook has been the bible of metalworking for more than a century. Any math found there is in use by machinists in the US. This is the minimum. So get a copy and leaf through it. Mostly it's tables, not math.

https://books.industrialpress.com/history-of-machinerys-handbook/

 

[mhacker]

Joe, thanks. I have looked at the Machinery’s Handbook as well as other compendia of mathematical competencies used in manufacturing. Some comments:

First, the manufacturing sectors we’re surveying extend beyond machining and materials fabrication. We are also looking at bio manufacturing, chemical manufacturing, nano manufacturing, etc. (so, manufacturing writ large).

Next, we’re trying to strike a balance between identifying every math concept listed (for example, the 146 listed in the Handbook and those listed in a telephone book-sized math in biotechnology book) and a reasonable number that we can ask people to review in a survey. We realize that responding to surveys is not normally something people are warm to, especially if they think it will take up a lot of time. We’re trying to optimize the response rate.

Finally, there are competencies that might be clustered under a heading (like trigonometry) and we’ll ask a question about use of trig, as opposed to breaking it down into subtopics like right and oblique spherical trigonometry.

40 items is our limit. If you’d be willing to look at our present draft, I would be grateful for your comments……especially if you find items that are missing that should be added.

Michael

 

[Booze Daily]

I’m not sure that core math skills are super important. Computers pretty much have that covered.

What I see lacking is concepts. If I lower a face mill .005 to get the stock to clean up, what does that do to the depth of the rest of the features?

I run 4 axis mills. If I comp the profile bigger or smaller at A0 what happens to the features on A90 or A-90.

I had a job that had two wrench flats and a square drive milled in the middle of a round part all done on the same op. The operator checked from the square to the flats and it was perfectly on center. Well duh, your doing both on the same op. Turns out it was off center from the rest of the part by .020 total.
Had to scrap the whole job. He just didn’t get it.