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Matrix Nexus - Parting off and Sub-Spindle Bar Pull?

Isak Andersson

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 3, 2021
Hi folks.

How can I part off with the part being held by both the main and the sub-spindle? Is there some way to do this in Mazatrol or do I need to make a manual program?

As for the sub-spindle bar pull, I assume I use transfer bar. The question is, is it best practice to put this at the end or the begging of the program? How would you do it?

Thanks!
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Hi folks.

How can I part off with the part being held by both the main and the sub-spindle? Is there some way to do this in Mazatrol or do I need to make a manual program?

As for the sub-spindle bar pull, I assume I use transfer bar. The question is, is it best practice to put this at the end or the begging of the program? How would you do it?

Thanks!

I have a program example with exactly what you want for a matrix controller. It’s on an integrex so maybe slightly different but I thinks it’s what you want. It can all be done in mazatrol
 

RoundHouse M&F

Plastic
Joined
Oct 12, 2020
Location
Speedwell
Dont know if this will help but here is a mazatrol bar-pull syncro-part for a T32-3 SQT18MS. I made this as sort of an add on to our programing manual. part is a penta head shoulder bolt.


PNo. MAT OD-MAX ID-MIN LENGTH RPM FIN-X FIN-Z WORK-FACE MPX FIN-LENGTH
0 S45C 1.1 0. 3.2 2500 0.005 0.003 0.2

PNo. MODE TYPE HEAD SPDL
1SEP SINGLE 1 <>


Start the program off with separate process block with the main spindle head

Pno. 2-12 normal main spindal opperations (od work/threading/pentamill)


PNo. MODE SETUP-No. HEAD Spdl-Orient-Method PUSH CHUCK
14TRS BAR 1 2 0=Keep 1

Sub-spindle opens runs up to grab the bar closes
This is the first set up so put it as #1.
The sub-spindle is the chuck being used to grab the bar so head #2 will be used
no need to bar pull with the spindle running cause the penta has been milled and is still in c-axis mode so use #0
when the chuck moves up you want the chuck to close when finished so place a #1 here


PNo. MODE SETUP-No. HEAD Spdl-Orient-Method PUSH CHUCK
15TRS BAR 2 1 0=Keep 1

main-spindle opens and sub-spindle pulls bar then MS closes
this is the second set-up so put it as #2
the main spindle is the head in use so put #1
no need to bar pull with the spindle running cause the penta has been milled and is still in c-axis mode so use #0
when the sub-spindle finishes pulling the bar you want the chuck to close when finished so place a #1 here so the MS closes

PNo. MODE TYPE HEAD SPDL
16SEP SYNC 1 <>

This activates linked mode so the spindles turn in synchronization
you wand the main-spindle to be the master driving spindle and the sub-spindle to be the slave spindle so put a #1 here


PNo. MODE #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10 #11 #12
17 M 8

PNo. MODE # No. PITCH WIDTH FINISH RV FV FEED DEP R-TOOL F-TOOL
18GRV OUT 4 1 0. <> 0.01 <> 90 0.003 0.6 <> 8
TPC Clearance U3 U4 U5 U6 Parameters
0.08 0.08 0.08 0.08 768 800 400 400 40 200
p1x12. p1z2.612 p2x p2z p3x p3z
Tur Rot Pos. P17 U1 U2 X Z M-CODE M-CODE GR OFS-No.
Rough 1 0.2 0.8
Finish 1 0.2 0.8
SEQ S-CNR SPT-X SPT-Z FPT-X FPT-Z F-CNR ANGLE ROUGH
1 C0.062 0.9 2.612 0. 2.612 0.003

this is a regular groove/parting operation except you must add a relay point tn the TPC settings to clear the chuck


PNo. MODE SETUP-No. HEAD Spdl-Orient-Method PUSH CHUCK
19TRS MOV 3 * * * *
TPC Clearance U3 U4 U5 U6 Parameters
0.08 0.08 0.08 0.08 0 400 120 0 400 0
p1x p1z p2x p2z p3x p3z
Tur Rot Pos. P17 U1 U2 X Z M-CODE M-CODE GR OFS-No.
Head 1 9 5
Head 2 9 5

This moves the sub-spindle so that the parts catcher will clear
Go into the TPC settings and under Heads 1-2 place M5 (spindle stop) and M9 (coolant off) codes
Go into TPC and set U27 to 0 because you dont need it to spinn while moving


PNo. MODE #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10 #11 #12
20 M 48

This raises the parts catcher

PNo. MODE #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10 #11 #12
21 M 306

This opens the sub-spindle chuck





PNo. MODE #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9 #10 #11 #12
22 M 49 512

M49 lowers the parts catcher
M512 forces the spindles out of linked mode ( The SEP process at the start of the PG wont do this even tho it shows that it does and the c-axis will never activate and orient in both auto and manual mode. However the mill spindle will still activate)

PNo. MODE SETUP-No. HEAD Spdl-Orient-Method PUSH CHUCK
23TRS MOV 4
TPC Clearance U3 U4 U5 U6 Parameters
0.08 0.08 0.08 0.08 0 400 120 0 400 0
p1x p1z p2x p2z p3x p3z
Tur Rot Pos. P17 U1 U2 X Z M-CODE M-CODE GR OFS-No.
Head 1
Head 2

This returns the sub spindle to the home position
This is the fourth set-up so lable it as #4
Go into TPC and set U27 to 0 because you don't need it to spin while moving
If no operations are performed on the sub-spindle remember to set the offset on the #4 to match the Wpc 0

PNo. MODE COUNTER RETURN WK.No. CONTinue NUM. SHIFT
24END 1 0 0 12

on the return set to 0. so it goes to the tool change position
set CONT to #0. if you set to #1 it ignores the Num block and will run indefinitely
the Num. Block is the total number of parts that will be ran with the first cycle included. (set at 8 parts ,load bar, cycle start, finishes w/ 8 parts.)
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
So please note this is on a twin turret machine so there are a couple moves where I am just orienting the upper turret and lower turret to be in safe places. This also has a parts catcher at the end with a spring loaded parts ejector. If you need I can post a video on YouTube of the program running so you can see what all is going on.

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06e9101d7765c53950564334fb693206.jpg
 

Isak Andersson

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 3, 2021
Thank you. I copied your program and I got it to simulate correctly. The problem now is that after it pulls the bar and it tries to sync the two spindles, the main spindle tries to start but the sub doesn't follow, leading to an overload of the main spindle motor. What could be the reason for this? Any Ideas?

Edit:
Actually, I'm not sure it's the sync that's the problem. It overloads immediately when the main spindle chuck clamps. Could it be the clamping itself leading to an overload somehow? It does make some nasty noise when it clamps, I must say.

Edit2:
I'm also getting error 375 "C/S ERROR (W AXIS POS.MALF.)". What's that all about?

Edit3:
I got it syncing now but the main spindle is humming pretty badly. Could it be a problem with raw stock having too much runout, making the spindle overloaded? Maybe it's better to pull the bar after doing a part off. What do you think?

Edit4:
I tried parting off before pulling but its the same problem. As soon as the spindles try to sync it starts humming and the clamping is pretty loud. Maybe the sub is just out of alignment. That would suck.

 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Thank you. I copied your program and I got it to simulate correctly. The problem now is that after it pulls the bar and it tries to sync the two spindles, the main spindle tries to start but the sub doesn't follow, leading to an overload of the main spindle motor. What could be the reason for this? Any Ideas?

Edit:
Actually, I'm not sure it's the sync that's the problem. It overloads immediately when the main spindle chuck clamps. Could it be the clamping itself leading to an overload somehow? It does make some nasty noise when it clamps, I must say.

Edit2:
I'm also getting error 375 "C/S ERROR (W AXIS POS.MALF.)". What's that all about?



Hmm have you checked you main spindle to sub spindle alignment? Are your jaws on both sides gripping the part pretty concentrically? Less than .001” hopefully?

I’m not sure on the error but call Mazak and they can probably help you. Free phone support and it’s usually pretty darn good support too
 

Scruffy887

Titanium
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Location
Se Ma USA
Spindles not aligned make a nasty vibration. Not synced is an overload.
Oh, no such thing as free support unless you bought the machine from Mazak, or paid to register $$ the used machine you purchased.
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Spindles not aligned make a nasty vibration. Not synced is an overload.
Oh, no such thing as free support unless you bought the machine from Mazak, or paid to register $$ the used machine you purchased.

Registration is free? What do you have to pay?
 

CNC Hacker

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Location
Hartford, CT
If it's overloading when both spindles are clamped before even turning them on, that's the hallmark of main to sub being out of alignment. Since the main spindle is rigid, it is trying to force the sub into alignment, which puts a ton of load onto the W axis. If you watch your load monitor I'm sure you'll see the W-axis load spiking up over 100%. This will be worse the closer the 2 chucks are to each other and the more rigid your workpiece is.
 

Isak Andersson

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 3, 2021
Yes, I just tested the runout between the two spindles, and it's a whopping 0.9mm (0.035”). I'm just surprised I haven't noticed it until now. I guess when it does a normal transfer, both spindles open and close at roughly the same time so it doesn't have enough time to overload.

So I assume it's the W-axis that has to be adjusted, right? Or maybe the spindle itself can be moved in the radial direction (up, down, left, right)?
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
Yes, I just tested the runout between the two spindles, and it's a whopping 0.9mm (0.035”). I'm just surprised I haven't noticed it until now. I guess when it does a normal transfer, both spindles open and close at roughly the same time so it doesn't have enough time to overload.

So I assume it's the W-axis that has to be adjusted, right? Or maybe the spindle itself can be moved in the radial direction (up, down, left, right)?

Wow that is a lot.

Have you leveled the lathe? Is the error in the vertical plane or horizontal?

You can also check if the main spindle is cutting a taper first to make sure it doesn’t need to move. Should be like less than .01mm over 150mm

You need to make sure the lathe is well leveled
Start with checking on a linear rail them mount a leveling bracket to the turret and insure you get a level with deviations of about .01mm over 200mm or better then insure you have less than one deviation over full travel.

You must do the same with the sub spindle

Then try your taper tests again then finally you can make the judgement call to break loose the sub spindle and try to tweak it in. But you never know it may be the main spindle is way out from a bad crash.
 

Isak Andersson

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 3, 2021
The error is mostly in the vertical direction.

I haven't noticed it cutting a taper on either the main or sub, but I also haven't made any parts longer than about 90mm, so...
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
The error is mostly in the vertical direction.

I haven't noticed it cutting a taper on either the main or sub, but I also haven't made any parts longer than about 90mm, so...

Have you leveled the machine?

Vertical direction in my mind is less common something has to be very wrong.

Make sure you use a very stubby indicator or better yet a coaxial indicator the haimer one is much better than the typical Blake you see here. when checking a typical indicator stand can sag a large amount
 

Isak Andersson

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 3, 2021
Have you leveled the machine?
I haven't, but the install guy told me he did. He also said he aligned the turret, but it's still out about 0.4mm from center. Since there's no Y-axis on the machine it makes working with live tooling a pain in the a**. Seems he have a different standard for what's considered "aligned".
 

Ianagos

Stainless
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Location
Atlanta
I haven't, but the install guy told me he did. He also said he aligned the turret, but it's still out about 0.4mm from center. Since there's no Y-axis on the machine it makes working with live tooling a pain in the a**. Seems he have a different standard for what's considered "aligned".

Mazak install guy did that?

Well that’s rough.

Mazak is weird when it’s something like spindle run out they spec high acceptable numbers but if it’s on something like leveling they want you to do it very very well??

Depending on the turret style it should not be that hard to get a 2meter pry bar and break loose the curvic coupling bolts to get the y axis alignment.

Took me a couple hours to do it on a SQT18MS it really was not that bad Exocet those bolts were tightened with the strength of a god. Like 10mm Allen wrench with a 3foot cheater and I was struggling. I think I broke and Allen wrench off if I remember correctly
 

CNC Hacker

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Location
Hartford, CT
The error is mostly in the vertical direction.

I haven't noticed it cutting a taper on either the main or sub, but I also haven't made any parts longer than about 90mm, so...

If it's mostly in the vertical direction a lot of that may be indicator sag. How were you indicating it? Co-axial or indicator on a mag base? It really doesn't take a lot of misalignment to cause an issue. A lot of times it can be fixed with leveling alone, worse case scenario the headstock(s) need to be broken loose and re-aligned.
 








 
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