Matsuura MX-330 vs DMG MORI CMX 50U vs ?

[JHarrelson]

We're planning to purchase a 5-axis machining center with an integrated 10+ pallet system this year.

We have a quote for the CMX 50U with 10 pallets for $450k, the DMU50 with 20 pallets for $850k, and several horizontals that we have eliminated from our search. We had quoted an MX-330 four years ago, but the price was quite high considering the control was so basic and not user friendly. The CMX is 3+2, which is surprising considering the cost of the investment. The DMU is a great machine, but again, the pricing. We're ready to invest what is necessary to run lights out in brass and aluminum.

What machines should we consider that compete with Matsuura and DMG MORI? We need 15k-20k spindle, 5 axis indexing or full 5, a user friendly control that my entire team can learn, and at least 10 pallets in the 300mm x 300mm range. We will be using this machine like a horizontal with multiple parts held on dedicated pallets AND as a 5 axis machine for other parts.

 

[boosted]

The pricing on the DMU50 3rd Gens has gotten absolutely out of control. It's a good machine but shouldn't really be in the premium category. They have nearly doubled in price since I bought one three years ago...

I think you should have have a look at the Hermle C250, which is an outstanding value. They use the same automation on the "bargain" machines as their premium line, which I think is a major selling point.

You could also look at the Mikron e500u. Mikron does lots and lots of pallet pools.

Both of those machines will come with a Heidenhain 640 control. I personally prefer the Siemens 840d, which you could get on the Matsuura or the DMG MORI, but either would be a big upgrade in performance and ease-of-use vs a FANUC.

 

[Orange Vise]

Whichever direction you go, you won't regret getting more pallets. With a smaller pallet pool, you'll see all those night cycles ending at 2am or weekend cycles ending early Saturday as missed opportunities.

Tool life management isn't a big consideration when machining brass and aluminum, but chip control is. Make sure the machine enclosure handles chips well and that the conveyor is up to the task. Also make sure the coolant tank is sufficiently large.

 

[boosted]

Tool life management isn't a big consideration when machining brass and aluminum, but chip control is. Make sure the machine enclosure handles chips well and that the conveyor is up to the task. Also make sure the coolant tank is sufficiently large.

This is where the Hermle should shine. The C250 as a standalone machine is pretty "meh", but if you buy it with automation, you get to take advantage of the tremendous amount of effort Hermle has put into making sure their premium machines will run unattended without little issues.

 

[Mustang Jack]

maybe a DMG Mori NMV 3000/5000? I don't know what the exact price point would be but ours is 140 tools? and 114 pallets I think, that about as lights out as you can get.
ours runs for nearly 4 days with out us having to do anything other than empty the swarf dolav

 

[thesidetalker]

This is where the Hermle should shine. The C250 as a standalone machine is pretty "meh", but if you buy it with automation, you get to take advantage of the tremendous amount of effort Hermle has put into making sure their premium machines will run unattended without little issues.

What things does Hermle do that Matsuura doesn't to prevent "little issues"? And what would you describe as little issues?

 

[empower]

The pricing on the DMU50 3rd Gens has gotten absolutely out of control. It's a good machine but shouldn't really be in the premium category. They have nearly doubled in price since I bought one three years ago...

I think you should have have a look at the Hermle C250, which is an outstanding value. They use the same automation on the "bargain" machines as their premium line, which I think is a major selling point.

You could also look at the Mikron e500u. Mikron does lots and lots of pallet pools.

Both of those machines will come with a Heidenhain 640 control. I personally prefer the Siemens 840d, which you could get on the Matsuura or the DMG MORI, but either would be a big upgrade in performance and ease-of-use vs a FANUC.

basically this, cant go wrong with Hermle or Mikron. i've got decent amount of experience with both and they are outstanding!
Mikron E/P500u will come with 7 pallets max though, unless you build a dedicated cell for it.

 

[empower]

What things does Hermle do that Matsuura doesn't to prevent "little issues"? And what would you describe as little issues?

chip/coolant management on our matsuura wasnt nearly as good as hermle, their spindles are weak, and fanuc doesnt hold a candle to HH/siemens. and even though matsuura can do siemens, you'll be kicking yourself for going with a control that the machine builder only does seldomly.
i would almost say you need to decide what control you want to go with, then look at MTB's that have that control dialed in perfectly to their machines.

 

[dstryr]

chip/coolant management on our matsuura wasnt nearly as good as hermle, their spindles are weak, and fanuc doesnt hold a candle to HH/siemens. and even though matsuura can do siemens, you'll be kicking yourself for going with a control that the machine builder only does seldomly.
i would almost say you need to decide what control you want to go with, then look at MTB's that have that control dialed in perfectly to their machines.

Your experience was on an older used 2 pallet LX machine. Not really fair to compare that to a new MAM72-35V.
In my shop we have 2 Grob with Erowa loading and 1 Yasda PX30i (similar to the Matsuura ) . They each have their plus and minus.

Another thing to consider is buy the machine you like the most and then go to Erowa for the loading options.
They have solutions that can share 1 pallet changer to 2 machines. Help divide the cost and leave you room for future growth.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

I'm a little biased, but Doosan makes a nice full 5 axis with pallet system. 15K spindles, choice of controls.

 

[empower]

Your experience was on an older used 2 pallet LX machine. Not really fair to compare that to a new MAM72-35V.
In my shop we have 2 Grob with Erowa loading and 1 Yasda PX30i (similar to the Matsuura ) . They each have their plus and minus.

Another thing to consider is buy the machine you like the most and then go to Erowa for the loading options.
They have solutions that can share 1 pallet changer to 2 machines. Help divide the cost and leave you room for future growth.

system 3r has very similar automation options, big benefit with GF Mikron is they own system 3r, their integration is a bit better than when you go with either 3r or erowa as a 3rd party

 

[empower]

I'm a little biased, but Doosan makes a nice full 5 axis with pallet system. 15K spindles, choice of controls.

as stated above, i'd NEVER go with a machine from an MTB using a control that they only do once in a blue moon, thats just asking for aids.

 

[Naskhan]

We’ve got two dmu50’s with pallet changers. One 6 pallet and one 40 pallet. Can’t go wrong with them. The 40 runs 24/7 the 6 anywhere between 18-20/6 depending on the jobs. They’ve been rock solid reliable. We put tombstones on a bunch of the pallets for longer run times. Basically only tend them maybe an hour a day to get 44 hours combined a day. You get 24/7 service too. Call on a Saturday night and you can talk to a tech.

 

[Evans.atmadja]

We're planning to purchase a 5-axis machining center with an integrated 10+ pallet system this year.

We have a quote for the CMX 50U with 10 pallets for $450k, the DMU50 with 20 pallets for $850k, and several horizontals that we have eliminated from our search. We had quoted an MX-330 four years ago, but the price was quite high considering the control was so basic and not user friendly. The CMX is 3+2, which is surprising considering the cost of the investment. The DMU is a great machine, but again, the pricing. We're ready to invest what is necessary to run lights out in brass and aluminum.

What machines should we consider that compete with Matsuura and DMG MORI? We need 15k-20k spindle, 5 axis indexing or full 5, a user friendly control that my entire team can learn, and at least 10 pallets in the 300mm x 300mm range. We will be using this machine like a horizontal with multiple parts held on dedicated pallets AND as a 5 axis machine for other parts.

How much they quote you for mx-330?

 

[mkd]

......
Mikron E/P500u will come with 7 pallets max though, unless you build a dedicated cell for it.

..And more bang for the buck in this comparison.

 

[Mr.Chipeater]

What did you end up buying JHarrelson?

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[JHarrelson]

What did you end up buying JHarrelson?

​

After much deliberation, we're ordering an Okuma Multus B250II with barfeeder and robot loader. The work envelope is impressive, and we can run our lathe and mill parts unattended on the same machine.

 

[Digital Factory]

After much deliberation, we're ordering an Okuma Multus B250II with barfeeder and robot loader. The work envelope is impressive, and we can run our lathe and mill parts unattended on the same machine.

That's a substantial deviation from the original plan.

Are you planning to machine everything from solid round bar or load fixtures in the chuck?

 

[JHarrelson]

We will do everything. Machined from bar stock with a collet chuck, dovetail fixturing, 3 and 4 jaw chucking.

 

[Mr.Chipeater]

After much deliberation, we're ordering an Okuma Multus B250II with barfeeder and robot loader. The work envelope is impressive, and we can run our lathe and mill parts unattended on the same machine.

Wow, wasn't expecting that. Just curious why the Multus instead of a Mori NTX? Mind saying what the Multus costed?