Mazak's new standard?

[Tom11]

Hi All! We just received a new Mazak turning center and the entire process from purchase to install has been anything BUT professional. Has anyone else had issues with Mazak North America since the pandemic? My point here isn’t to drag Mazak through the mud. My intent is to share our experience and hopefully understand other Mazak customer experiences, specifically post-pandemic. To better understand if our experience was an anomaly or the new Mazak standard. We are a Mazak turning shop, but if future machine purchases and installation projects are going to be handled as poorly as our current install-and we aren't the only Mazak customers enduring it, we may have to go with a manufacturer other than Mazak. Has anyone else experienced similar issues with Mazak in the last 2-3 years?:
1.Sales? We all know 98% of salesman are useless. But even when I brought the issues noted throughout this thread to the salesman's attention, I got brushed off or just flat out ignored. The salesman is a customer’s point of contact and if he/she doesn’t want to respond to you, who do you contact?(-The answer is their boss.)
2.Lead-Time? The salesman had no clue when the machine would be in the states and would not respond to my request for updates. Sure this might be understandable to a few, but our rigger who doesn’t work for Mazak was able to estimate 2 months out from the machines promised delivery date an anticipated delivery date. His estimate was only off by five days-the salesman should be just as knowledgeable and should not be ignoring his customer! The machine took over ten months to arrive at our facility, it was 1-1/2 months late past the promised date.
3. Installation? It took three tech's to install a small turning center-QTEZ8MSY. Several pieces to the machine were missing and the collet chucks that were supposed to be installed at the factory per the sales agreement were not installed at the factory. The chucks took nearly three weeks to get installed due to missing pieces and unknowledgeable tech's. The first tech on the job showed up Monday morning but was being relocated to Atlanta by Mazak that Friday. He understandably spent a considerable amount of time coordinating things with the movers and his wife-but this delayed the install. The second tech to show up, late Monday morning, we think just started with Mazak, and just being honest here-we didn’t see him do any work. The only thing we observed the second tech doing was shortly after arrival getting vocal with his boss on the phone because he felt he got shorted on vacation time. I'm guessing things didn't work out the way he hoped, which is why he didn’t help with the install that week.?. A third tech showed up on Wednesday, progress started to be made at this point, but then the missing pieces I referred to earlier became a problem. The installers were gone by Thursday afternoon of that same week. Fast forward a month and the Mazak was finally put together. But, Mazak left before LNS finished their end of things and no one from Mazak verified that the bar feeder is working with the lathe? We still don’t know, keep in mind the machine has been here since May and it is now August and it has yet to make a chip!?! In my experience machine tool dealers/techs never left before you had a part off of a new machine. When I questioned the tech about not having even a generic part come off the machine, he replied that is something they never have done. I am curious to know when this changed?
4. The Mazak call center - Installation Coordination and Apps Training? Up until this point I have been very professional, nice and have tried to get to the point, but no one at the call center knows what is going on and almost everyone I spoke to was pointing their finger at someone else. Keep in mind, they are supposed to be the brains of the operation. They forgot to coordinate the LNS install with the machine install. It was three weeks until LNS could get to our site to install the bar feeder. I guess it was a good thing we were missing parts to the machine.?. I eventually ended up having to request to speak to a manager at Mazak, by the name of Kevin, to get the missing parts installed. It was the first professional & helpful conversation I had with a rep. from Mazak and it seemed to briefly “get the train back on the tracks”. I really do wish I had more positive things to say about our experience with Mazak, but if I did, I guess I wouldn't be here. I apologize for the lengthy post. This post has been severely edited down from the 13 page report I had to give to my boss going into detail on all of the issues-we will not be paying the agreed to price. And the company I work for is very good about paying their vendors. I’ve lead almost two dozen machine installs at this point in my career and the Mazak install I’ve detailed in this thread is by far the lengthiest and most frustrating install I’ve had to manage. Should we expect this to be the new normal for machine dealer installations? Is it the new normal for Mazak? Or were we just an anomaly? I worked VERY hard to keep this post professional, so please keep any responses in regards to your own personal experiences with Mazak installations on a professional level. Thank you and I hope this will be helpful to us as well as others! -Tom

 

[noname777]

Just go on Internet and check how many open positions they have across your country. Last time I checked it ( 3 years ago) , 25 states were looking to employ service people. No statistics on sales people.

 

[Nagol]

We had a QT350MY installed last year and it all seemed normal to me. I can't speak to delivery notice as I am just another machinist in the shop and not management but we had a few days before the machine came that they prepped and got the existing machine moved and the space cleared. We have fork lifts big enough to move a machine that big so it was not a rigging issue either. We got the machine in place, roughly leveled and wired up and I believe Mazak was there a week or two later. One tech was there for a week and did not make a part but did make a test cut to dial the machine in. Our chuck was already installed upon arrival. No bar feeder so I can't speak to that extra complication you had either. Could be a different scenario though since this was a Kentucky machine not Japan. I think in NW Indiana we have some of the best support in the country though because there is a lot of manufacturing here.

 

[cnctoolcat]

Mazak is a huge company that has struggled with growing pains since the early 90's, when I experienced similar types of issues you had with new machine purchases. They've just never had adequate staff in their various departments.

You have to do your homework before and during the purchase of a new Mazak...which is ridiculous but it's just how it is. You have to flesh-out your salesman and distributor before issuing a PO for a new machine...they are going to be your lifeline with Mazak! And if they're not up-to-snuff, then you either request buying direct from Mazak, or find another brand.

Most machine tool companies will lie about delivery dates. Especially for the smaller shops, the delivery from Mazak is always going to be weeks or months longer than they first promise...unless you buy a stock machine.

And for any changes or options, you should either visit the factory before the machine ships, or request photos of the machine with the options (put this in your PO). Mazak isn't the only builder to shove standard machines out the door, then depend on a field service tech to install the options.

And when buying accessories like bar feeders, you should make contact with that company directly, make sure they understand exactly what's going on, and what is expected.

If you get a lot of run-around before placing the PO, it won't get any better once you do.

And never, and that's NEVER, sign off on a new machine until everything like you described has been 100% taken care of. This will eventually get Mazak accounting involved, as they want their money for the machine. When the bean counters take notice, engineering and service usually get their shit together.

Mazak builds some great machines (especially turning centers), but they've always been a bitch to buy from and deal with. It's why I buy only used ones...

ToolCat

 

[BOB-OO]

IMHO....your not alone. Integrex i250HSTN- AI control, sub & lower turret, HP coolant, w LNS, and Royal collet chucks. 11 month wait for the machine, install was rough and took more months BUT we are very happy w the machine, it is routinely exceeding our expectations in both tolerances, design, and reliability. Mazak have been very supportive with apps help, tuning parameters for 5x CAM, and fixing something if not working correctly - they had to replace the bar feeder interface - the original from Japan was DOA.
The c19 BS has really damaged the electronics industry - lots of bad parts out there, everything from contactors to boards and cpu's. Add the labor shortage, more regulations, higher taxes, reductions in accounting expenses and welcome to the US in 2023.
IMHO...Makino has NOT done as well as Mazak in the same period, as a customer I am more satisfied w Mazak then Makino-we got one of those as well same time, faster delivery worse coordination on options.
I will still give both a chance at our next machine but I am not counting on any delivery dates or $$ from the new machines revenue to cover the bills in less then 1yr. We will also likely add more requirements to our PO's.

What company do you think would have done a better job during the last 2 years? At least when its done you have good iron. I expect as we all adjust Mazak and Makino will too.

 

[noname777]

I would bet 20 bucks on the fact that, when it comes to service, quality of service ppl, it really depends on particular branch manager and his attitude towards his team.

 

[???]

To give you some info regarding Mazak from the other side of the world. No names but I know of a world leader in their field with only Mazak's that refuses to deal with the local rep. They buy direct from Japan and have their own tech's.

I also ran a V-100 and always used a 3rd party tech, to be fair the boss was a tight arse and maybe he didn't want to pay the local reps rates.

 

[cwhuffman]

I was in Florence two weeks ago to tour the factory and the guy that gave me the tour said they are starting to sell machines that will be delivered in Q1 of 2024, mostly turning centers but it seems to be across the board. They are not hurting for business, just about every square inch of the facility had machine bases, sheet metal waiting to go on the machine, and machines stacked one after another being assembled. It seems their biggest issue is employees across the board, which is why they began an in house program to try and help train people off the street how to assemble, scrape, align, and wire a machine tool. Other than man power, they are running out of room in the facility to build machines and have had a difficult time sourcing castings for some machine components for certain models (at least based on an article I read earlier this year.) The lead times in a lot of cases are a big deal breaker as DN, Haas, and maybe Okuma have machines in stock ready to ship out to their customers within a few days. I know of a few people who chose to go with another brand over Mazak simply because they needed the spindle, and needed it fast. This has, in turn, inflated the price of used Mazak turning centers substantially! I saw a used dealer who had a 2012 QTN250MSY selling for $174,000 and a 1999 SQT250MSY selling for $55,000!

As for your service and set up, a lot of that has to do with the distributor you are working with. Mazak over the last few years has gone through and consolidated a lot of their regions and service networks with existing or new distributors. One of those EZs should not be more than a day to set up since the coolant tank and chip conveyer are all integrated into the machine base, and they fairly simple to level. The issue with the accessories collet chucks may have been an oversight on someones part when going through the PO list and ordering stuff. The missing parts from the machine however, is a bit curious and somewhat concerning that a machine would get shipped if it was missing a lot of stuff.

At the end of the day, we all have our brand loyalties. I have become quite fond of my QTN250MS and would like to add another 250MSY or 200MSY if I can find one that is reasonable. But, at the end of the day keeping your salesman and distributor honest by saying their are other options out there can help put some pressure on them if they care in the slightest.

 

[Philabuster]

anyone to share more stories about Mazak? I am all yours, before I tell you why and how it works

I got stories about my 4 Mazak CNC lathes, but they don't involve service calls. Three of them were made in 1986 and they just keep making me parts.

 

[Scruffy887]

Nothing in your post has anything to do with my experiences with Mazak Northeast. Last year I purchased 2 EZ 2040 mills and a month into the wait my SA sent an urgent text about the air consumption, so I switched to 2 VCN series. Increased my wait times ( and $) because of the 15K spindles. Machines showed up, 2 tech guys showed up less than a week after delivery. They leveled the machines, cleaned most of the sludge from the tables, set them up. That was September 2022. Since then the much more experienced tech (bazillion years?) has shown up out of the blue at least twice. "Need help with the new machines?" No, but I have a 1999 VTC 30 that has a probe problem, and a 2006 VTC 300 with a broken probe. Can you help me with those? Sure. Renishaw parts out of date but he got a link for me on Fleabay replacements, and calibrated the probe on the newer (2005) machine.
Day after he came by an email came in with full report for the Service Call. Amount due $0.00. So your experiences do not reflect mine. Good luck.

 

[kb0thn]

I ordered a QT250MSY last spring. It showed up in the fall a couple months late. Was loaded funny on the truck and accessories were kind of just dumped into boxes. Some stuff was bent. Problem seemed to be whoever did the final packing of the machine really didn't do their job. I screamed bloody murder and about a week after delivery Mazak kicked into high gear and sent parts and technicians and they had the machine pretty much ready to go by 30 days after delivery.

Because the machine came late, the job I bought it for was done and I didn't really have other work ready to go. I got a couple days of training right before Thanksgiving and really didn't use the machine at all until this summer. Something like 10 cutting hours in 6 months. Now that I am starting to use it more there have been a few additional issues. The ring that goes on the draw bar and signals the machine for chuck open / chuck close flew off and went dancing around the shop. Apparently it was never tightened at the factory. Some other small screws came out of the main check and sub spindle. Obviously never tightened at the factory. Parts catcher caught about 750 parts and then was giving an error. Turns out the brackets holding the proximity switches were not tightened.

I'm kind of hoping that these lose parts are just going to get worked out and it will be a champ of a machine for the next 20 years. I have a QT15 from 1989 that happily makes parts every day. I have VC500C VMC that I bought new at the end of 2019 that has been quite dependable and a very nice machine for me. A couple of calls into Mazak support for tool changer recovery help and more recently tool changer arm that wasn't at zero.

I've gotten a couple days of application engineer on site with both new machines I've bought. That's been valuable. I even brought him back for a couple of days of paid time to help me learn the new lathe. It's expensive, but worthwhile.

 

[MCritchley]

I ordered a QT250MSY last spring. It showed up in the fall a couple months late. Was loaded funny on the truck and accessories were kind of just dumped into boxes. Some stuff was bent. Problem seemed to be whoever did the final packing of the machine really didn't do their job. I screamed bloody murder and about a week after delivery Mazak kicked into high gear and sent parts and technicians and they had the machine pretty much ready to go by 30 days after delivery.

Because the machine came late, the job I bought it for was done and I didn't really have other work ready to go. I got a couple days of training right before Thanksgiving and really didn't use the machine at all until this summer. Something like 10 cutting hours in 6 months. Now that I am starting to use it more there have been a few additional issues. The ring that goes on the draw bar and signals the machine for chuck open / chuck close flew off and went dancing around the shop. Apparently it was never tightened at the factory. Some other small screws came out of the main check and sub spindle. Obviously never tightened at the factory. Parts catcher caught about 750 parts and then was giving an error. Turns out the brackets holding the proximity switches were not tightened.

I'm kind of hoping that these lose parts are just going to get worked out and it will be a champ of a machine for the next 20 years. I have a QT15 from 1989 that happily makes parts every day. I have VC500C VMC that I bought new at the end of 2019 that has been quite dependable and a very nice machine for me. A couple of calls into Mazak support for tool changer recovery help and more recently tool changer arm that wasn't at zero.

I've gotten a couple days of application engineer on site with both new machines I've bought. That's been valuable. I even brought him back for a couple of days of paid time to help me learn the new lathe. It's expensive, but worthwhile.

That's shoddy, i have a newer Okuma and every screw has yellow paint indicating its been tightened. Mazak needs a screw checker with a paint pen.

 

[Scruffy887]

That's shoddy, i have a newer Okuma and every screw has yellow paint indicating its been tightened. Mazak needs a screw checker with a paint pen.

2 Machines in 2021 and 2 in 2022, all paint marker stripes on every fastener I could find. Your results may vary I guess.

 

[Philabuster]

That's shoddy, i have a newer Okuma and every screw has yellow paint indicating its been tightened. Mazak needs a screw checker with a paint pen.

The Japanese built Mazak Integrex we bought new in 2017 had every bolt and hydraulic fitting marked with a paint pen. Some critical fasteners were marked with two different colors of paint indicating that fastener was inspected by two separate people.

 

[BT Fabrication]

I've tried to deal with mazak locally and the service was sub par on a machine I was going to buy. Basically got blown off by them. So I said screw it, definately won't buy from them no matter what if they couldnt give me any info on a machine I wanted to buy....