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Mikron P800U vs Hermle C42 (both with pallet changer)

CNC Hacker

Cast Iron
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Location
Hartford, CT
A grease pack 18K spindle just sounds like a terrible idea. My buddy's shop has a Mill P500 with the pallet pool option and I believe a 20K spindle. He really likes it, although one downside of the pallet pool on the backside is the weight capacity per pallet is lower than a similar sized machine from say Mazak. The arm has a long way to reach thru the machine. They run mostly aerospace superalloys in it, lots of titanium right now. He's also said the applications support from GF has been excellent and he loves the Heidenhain control.
 

bryan_machine

Diamond
Joined
Jun 16, 2006
Location
Near Seattle
So the "entry" level Hermle's can (all???) take a tool magazine extension, which I sort of vaguely think can be added later. Would that still be an option for a C42? Does Mikron have such an option? (And would OP care?)
 

Houdini16

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
We were looking at a Mill E 700U Seemed sweet, until the salesman told me it was made in China, Nope, I'm out!
 

empower

Titanium
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
We were looking at a Mill E 700U Seemed sweet, until the salesman told me it was made in China, Nope, I'm out!
you're missing out. i've personally worked with an E 700U for about 2 years, nothing but great things to say about it. despite being assembled in china, most components are high quality, and assembled VERY well. i'm a picky motherfucker, and i have very few things that i'd change in it.
 

Houdini16

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Also if a machine is not rated at high RPM constant and needs some BS cool down, Then it's not rated for tool and die work.
Most of the machining I do with tooling is non-stop days on end of machining with small tooling,
So buying a 5 axis for mold cores(would be great)would absolutely need a high rpm spindle with no BS cool down.
Last thing I ran was a non-stop 72 HR surfacing with a .031 ball endmill.
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
Also if a machine is not rated at high RPM constant and needs some BS cool down, Then it's not rated for tool and die work.
Most of the machining I do with tooling is non-stop days on end of machining with small tooling,
So buying a 5 axis for mold cores(would be great)would absolutely need a high rpm spindle with no BS cool down.
Last thing I ran was a non-stop 72 HR surfacing with a .031 ball endmill.
I'm not disagreeing with this at all. I think if a machine has a 20k spindle it should be able to be run at 20k all day.

But... With tools smaller than really .093" you're in the realm that a 50-90k air spindle tool holder you can drive with thru-tool air will more than pay for itself since if you can almost 4-5x you're feed rates on a 50+ hr program, that's a huge time savings.
 

Houdini16

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
I'm not disagreeing with this at all. I think if a machine has a 20k spindle it should be able to be run at 20k all day.

But... With tools smaller than really .093" you're in the realm that a 50-90k air spindle tool holder you can drive with thru-tool air will more than pay for itself since if you can almost 4-5x you're feed rates on a 50+ hr program, that's a huge time savings.
The problem you have is some of this micro tooling you have really long hangout, like a heat shrink holder, with a extra slim shrink extension, then a 1/4" shank tool hang out 3-4" all with a 2-3° taper. Now you can only spin this 6000 rpm or it chatters. And now you have sometimes over 100hrs surface pass, and no ability for a HS air spindle.
shrink.jpg
 
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crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
The problem you have is some of this micro tooling you have really long hangout, like a heat shrink holder, with a extra slim shrink extension, then a 1/4" shank tool hang out 3-4" all with a 2-3° taper. Now you can only spin this 6000 rpm or it chatters. And now you have sometimes over 100hrs surface pass, and no ability for a HS air spindle.
View attachment 378659
You should check out Schunk's heatshrink profile hydraulic line of holders they have. Get the slim profile with the damping ability of a hydro. They do customs too if you ask. They also make some pretty slim hydro extensions too. Also MST makes solid carbide shank heatshrink extensions that are way stiffer than the regular stuff.

1667506344401.png 1667506451971.png
 
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Houdini16

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
You should check out Schunk's heatshrink profile hydraulic line of holders they have. Get the slim profile with the damping ability of a hydro. They do customs too if you ask. They also make some pretty slim hydro extensions too.

View attachment 378665 View attachment 378666
Looks sweet, yeah most the stuff I see engineers dont know how to engineer injection moolded parts so they do the old can we have zero draft, no, how about one , or 2 degrees, idiots. So you end up using super skinny stuff like
mini-shrink-verlaengerung-image_02.jpgb2_minishrink.jpg
and tooling like this
Harvey-EndMill-009_TableDims.png
 

crossthread82

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Location
Maryland
Looks sweet, yeah most the stuff I see engineers dont know how to engineer injection moolded parts so they do the old can we have zero draft, no, how about one , or 2 degrees, idiots. So you end up using super skinny stuff like
View attachment 378667View attachment 378668
and tooling like this
View attachment 378669
Trust me you don't gotta tell me, I know plenty of them lol.

A shunk slim4x holder with one or two carbide MST extensions in it would be a good option. Could easily run 20k rpm. Pricey, but good.

1667507774852.png
 

Houdini16

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Trust me you don't gotta tell me, I know plenty of them lol.

A shunk slim4x holder with one or two carbide MST extensions in it would be a good option. Could easily run 20k rpm. Pricey, but good.

View attachment 378670
Yeah carbide is the key there. I had a sit down with Harvey Tool some years back, and designed some of the Mold tooling they sell now, helped a bit also. Even put me on the front cover of the mold catalog then also, pretty nice of them.
Mold tooling catalog
 








 
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