Mikron P800U vs Hermle C42 (both with pallet changer)

[CNC Hacker]

A grease pack 18K spindle just sounds like a terrible idea. My buddy's shop has a Mill P500 with the pallet pool option and I believe a 20K spindle. He really likes it, although one downside of the pallet pool on the backside is the weight capacity per pallet is lower than a similar sized machine from say Mazak. The arm has a long way to reach thru the machine. They run mostly aerospace superalloys in it, lots of titanium right now. He's also said the applications support from GF has been excellent and he loves the Heidenhain control.

 

[bryan_machine]

So the "entry" level Hermle's can (all???) take a tool magazine extension, which I sort of vaguely think can be added later. Would that still be an option for a C42? Does Mikron have such an option? (And would OP care?)

 

[5 axis Fidia guy]

i'd like to see the torque curve on that 25k, do you have it by chance?

I looked thru my literature, all it says for me is 25000RPM 20kW 100Nm torque.

 

[josephk]

i'd like to see the torque curve on that 25k, do you have it by chance?

page 31,

https://www.aichi-sangyo.co.jp/pdf/machine/201611_Hermle_C42_EN.pdf

 

[empower]

page 31,

https://www.aichi-sangyo.co.jp/pdf/machine/201611_Hermle_C42_EN.pdf

View attachment 378625

thanks! deff less low end than the step-tec, but not bad for 25k rpm! beats the grob 22k spindle for sure

 

[Houdini]

We were looking at a Mill E 700U Seemed sweet, until the salesman told me it was made in China, Nope, I'm out!

 

[empower]

We were looking at a Mill E 700U Seemed sweet, until the salesman told me it was made in China, Nope, I'm out!

you're missing out. i've personally worked with an E 700U for about 2 years, nothing but great things to say about it. despite being assembled in china, most components are high quality, and assembled VERY well. i'm a picky motherfucker, and i have very few things that i'd change in it.

 

[Orange Vise]

2-3 years ago IIRC, only the P models have it.

How much does a P 500 run, barebones and well equipped minus automation?

 

[empower]

How much does a P 500 run, barebones and well equipped minus automation?

around 500k. 60 tools, TSC, band conveyor etc. with 7 pallets and 120 tools its mid 600s

 

[Houdini]

Also if a machine is not rated at high RPM constant and needs some BS cool down, Then it's not rated for tool and die work.
Most of the machining I do with tooling is non-stop days on end of machining with small tooling,
So buying a 5 axis for mold cores(would be great)would absolutely need a high rpm spindle with no BS cool down.
Last thing I ran was a non-stop 72 HR surfacing with a .031 ball endmill.

 

[crossthread82]

Also if a machine is not rated at high RPM constant and needs some BS cool down, Then it's not rated for tool and die work.
Most of the machining I do with tooling is non-stop days on end of machining with small tooling,
So buying a 5 axis for mold cores(would be great)would absolutely need a high rpm spindle with no BS cool down.
Last thing I ran was a non-stop 72 HR surfacing with a .031 ball endmill.

I'm not disagreeing with this at all. I think if a machine has a 20k spindle it should be able to be run at 20k all day.

But... With tools smaller than really .093" you're in the realm that a 50-90k air spindle tool holder you can drive with thru-tool air will more than pay for itself since if you can almost 4-5x you're feed rates on a 50+ hr program, that's a huge time savings.

 

[Houdini]

I'm not disagreeing with this at all. I think if a machine has a 20k spindle it should be able to be run at 20k all day.

But... With tools smaller than really .093" you're in the realm that a 50-90k air spindle tool holder you can drive with thru-tool air will more than pay for itself since if you can almost 4-5x you're feed rates on a 50+ hr program, that's a huge time savings.

The problem you have is some of this micro tooling you have really long hangout, like a heat shrink holder, with a extra slim shrink extension, then a 1/4" shank tool hang out 3-4" all with a 2-3° taper. Now you can only spin this 6000 rpm or it chatters. And now you have sometimes over 100hrs surface pass, and no ability for a HS air spindle.

 

[crossthread82]

The problem you have is some of this micro tooling you have really long hangout, like a heat shrink holder, with a extra slim shrink extension, then a 1/4" shank tool hang out 3-4" all with a 2-3° taper. Now you can only spin this 6000 rpm or it chatters. And now you have sometimes over 100hrs surface pass, and no ability for a HS air spindle.
View attachment 378659

You should check out Schunk's heatshrink profile hydraulic line of holders they have. Get the slim profile with the damping ability of a hydro. They do customs too if you ask. They also make some pretty slim hydro extensions too. Also MST makes solid carbide shank heatshrink extensions that are way stiffer than the regular stuff.

 

[Houdini]

You should check out Schunk's heatshrink profile hydraulic line of holders they have. Get the slim profile with the damping ability of a hydro. They do customs too if you ask. They also make some pretty slim hydro extensions too.

View attachment 378665 View attachment 378666

Looks sweet, yeah most the stuff I see engineers dont know how to engineer injection moolded parts so they do the old can we have zero draft, no, how about one , or 2 degrees, idiots. So you end up using super skinny stuff like

and tooling like this

 

[crossthread82]

Looks sweet, yeah most the stuff I see engineers dont know how to engineer injection moolded parts so they do the old can we have zero draft, no, how about one , or 2 degrees, idiots. So you end up using super skinny stuff like
View attachment 378667View attachment 378668
and tooling like this
View attachment 378669

Trust me you don't gotta tell me, I know plenty of them lol.

A shunk slim4x holder with one or two carbide MST extensions in it would be a good option. Could easily run 20k rpm. Pricey, but good.

 

[Houdini]

Trust me you don't gotta tell me, I know plenty of them lol.

A shunk slim4x holder with one or two carbide MST extensions in it would be a good option. Could easily run 20k rpm. Pricey, but good.

View attachment 378670

Yeah carbide is the key there. I had a sit down with Harvey Tool some years back, and designed some of the Mold tooling they sell now, helped a bit also. Even put me on the front cover of the mold catalog then also, pretty nice of them.
Mold tooling catalog

 

[empower]

MST tool holders are the shit! especially the monocurve ones.

 

[crossthread82]

MST tool holders are the shit! especially the monocurve ones.

Regular 3* heatshrink

Monocurve heatshrink


Literally 4 times less deflection for the same radial load at the same gauge length.

 

[empower]

Regular 3* heatshrink
View attachment 378674
Monocurve heatshrink
View attachment 378675

Literally 4 times less deflection for the same radial load at the same gauge length.

its mind blowing to me that nobody else (that i've seen) does tapered curve holders like MST, it makes SOOO much sense!

 

[Houdini]

its mind blowing to me that nobody else (that i've seen) does tapered curve holders like MST, it makes SOOO much sense!

I haven't looked, but is the tapered length the same, that's what would matter?