Monarch 10EE WiaD - Not turning

[RPratt94]

Hello all,
My shop bought a well-used but decent condition 1958 Monarch 10EE last year and it has been a great machine for us. A few months ago, it started bogging down with heavier cuts very easily and occasionally speeding up RPMs while in use randomly. Finally last week, the spindle decided it was finished turning on. The machine starts up, I get an audible 'click' when I start it after the warmup period, but when I throw it into forward or reverse, the spindle stays where it is. We have talked to Monarch who sent us the correct schematics, had an electrician come out who couldn't help us and got a quote from someone who supposedly knows what he is doing to fix it for ~$20,000 which isn't going to happen. Trying to research this on my own before the company decides to scrap it and buy a new lathe which is looming closer.
Our maintenance says that all tubes, resistors and contacts have continuity, the spindle lock is not engaged, changing the RPM has no effect and neither does just leaving the forward spindle handle engaged for an extended period of time.
Any help or ideas would be very appreciated.
Thank you!

 

[Karl_T]

Couple 10EE gurus should be along shortly to help you. Yep, local electricians can not handle these old special electronics.

Another option is to replace the drive with a 3 phase motor and modern VFD. This should run 20 years without an issue plus easy for any electrician to maintain. If you are interested in this route, let me know. I have done this three times.

 

[jbacc]

As Karl mentioned, the 10EE gurus will be along shortly and they are more than willing and beyond helpful in diagnosing and repairing these machines. While Karl offered a great alternative to getting your lathe up and running with modern electronics at a cost I am sure far less than $20,000.00, I would urge you to review the wealth of information available on this site as well as follow the advice of the experts to get your current original drive up and running. They may be antiquated but when they work, they work very well, and they are very reliable.

I'm new to the 10EE club and I have already learned so much that it is far less daunting to work on it. There are also solid-state replacement's for those Thyatron tubes which might be the source of your problem but as I said, I am new to the club and will wait for the experts to chime in.

Good luck!

Joe

 

[m-lud]

Reading the Op's post this lathe is in a working shop. The OP is asking for troublshooting help, not advice to rip out the whole drive and starting over.
You have what is called "Works in a Drawer"
Someone with more knowledge to help.should stop in.
If it turns out that the c16j tubes are the problem this is an affordable option with good reviews.

http://www.scissiocontrols.com/uploads/4/7/8/8/47883279/c16j_datasheet_07.pdf

Your lathe still has much more value than scrap.
I can understand your companys veiewpoint. Time is money.
Before it gets scrapped, please post it here.
Hope you get it running.

 

[rke[pler]

There's a decent debugging checklist in the manual. Here's a copy of that page:

 

[daryl bane]

Maybe it's just the pic, but I don't see any light from the two big tubes. Should be a pretty rose glow, even if the spindle is not turning.

 

[rke[pler]

Maybe it's just the pic, but I don't see any light from the two big tubes. Should be a pretty rose glow, even if the spindle is not turning.

If the DC Panel overload or fuse is open you won't see the C16Js fire.

 

[m-lud]

Here are some old threads worth reading.

Need help troubleshooting a 1955 10" EE

I got this works-in-a-drawer machine from Timken Bearing's Torington, CN plant, in 'as is' condition. The spindle doesn't turn when: power is applied, the start button is depressed, and the lever is shifted to forward or reverse. According to the troubleshooting suggestions in the original...

www.practicalmachinist.com

Need help troubleshooting a 1955 10" EE

I got this works-in-a-drawer machine from Timken Bearing's Torington, CN plant, in 'as is' condition. The spindle doesn't turn when: power is applied, the start button is depressed, and the lever is shifted to forward or reverse. According to the troubleshooting suggestions in the original...

www.practicalmachinist.com

More Practical Machinist threads on your lathe.
Good luck in getting it running.
A wealth of troubleshooting info.

monarch Works in a drawer Trouble shooting site:www.practicalmachinist.com - Bing

Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.

www.bing.com

 

[Cal Haines]

I see that you're located in PA. Where abouts? There's a very knowlegeable industrial electrician with 10EE experience in the general area who might be willing to come fix it.

 

[RPratt94]

Thank you all for your help so far!

I checked the 1amp fuse and DC overload. The 1amp fuse is good, not sure what the DC overload is supposed to be doing. It is pulled in at the moment and if I pull it out it springs back in when I let it go. I checked input/output with a multimeter and it had continuity through the overload whether it was pulled in or out. I know next to nothing about electrical, so my main concern at this point is not killing myself lol. Of course, always looking at it unplugged and checking anything I touch first.

Also, I the C16J tubes definitely have no glow at all, but they do get very hot.

The main contactor contacts when I start it up, the start button works after 60 seconds (though I never knew there was supposed to be a green light, it is burnt out) and the contactors flip and stay flipped when I move the handle into forward or reverse. I did notice one issue with the anti-plugging relay, it somehow got twisted up on itself. I corrected this but there was no change.

Also, where are the 15 amp fuses located? I haven't been able to locate them.

Unfortunately the company has written this machine off already, so I don't know what resources I can get to fix this, I am looking at it myself in an attempt to fix it before they replace it. I already invested a fair amount of time getting it cleaned up and tooled up and it was a great lathe for the year or two that we've had it, very nice with a 5C collet chuck.

We were told by Monarch that this variation of machine is very uncommon and they did not really want to touch it it seemed like, so not sure what may be different from a standard 10EE.

Any other thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Cal Haines]

Where are you located?

There should be a data plate on the base, below the tailstock. What's the build date and serial number of the machine?

 

[RPratt94]

Where are you located?

There should be a data plate on the base, below the tailstock. What's the build date and serial number of the machine?

I apologize, I should've answered those questions already. I am near Pottstown, PA.

Build date is 12-1958, SN is EE 43661.

Thank you Cal!

 

[Cal Haines]

I'm checking with my electrician friend to see if he can help.

There should be four fuses on the "electronic unit", in the drawer under the tailstock. Look to the right of the tubes. The pair on the top should be 15A, the pair on the bottom should be 3A. You'll want to check all four fuses.

What did you mean that the AP relay got "all twisted up"?

The overload device on the bottom of the DC panel is push to reset. If you push it and nothing happens, it's not tripped. Don't pull on it, it's not like a circuit breaker that you can open at will. It's actually a thermally-operated relay: one pair of terminals carries the load current, the other is used to control something.

 

[RPratt94]

I'm checking with my electrician friend to see if he can help.

There should be four fuses on the "electronic unit", in the drawer under the tailstock. Look to the right of the tubes. The pair on the top should be 15A, the pair on the bottom should be 3A. You'll want to check all four fuses.

What did you mean that the AP relay got "all twisted up"?

The overload device on the bottom of the DC panel is push to reset. If you push it and nothing happens, it's not tripped. Don't pull on it, it's not like a circuit breaker that you can open at will. It's actually a thermally-operated relay: one pair of terminals carries the load current, the other is used to control something.

I appreciate that

Ah, I see. They all have continuity, only on my machine they have plates marking them as 20A and 3A, no 15A.

Is the AP relay in the above pictures positioned correctly? It looks like it is twisted since it has little pads on the two arms where it seems like it would want to contact and one of them is above where it appears it should be sitting. All of the photos of the DC panel I find online look different than what I have, so it is hard for me to tell.

I see, it must not be tripped then.

 

[Cal Haines]

Sorry, the AP relay in the photo is wrong. The right side should be like the left, so that the arm will move freely. As shown, the relay won't operate. That was probably done to defeat the anti-plugging circuit, but the question is why? The AP relay's function is to open once the spindle gets above a certain speed, to keep you from "plug reversing" the spindle motor. But if the AP relay doesn't reclose, the spindle won't start.

On your model DC panel, the upper pair of fuses are apparently 20A (per drawing 20124).

So where you're at now the filaments on both C16J tubes are dark? What about the other tubes, are their filaments glowing? From what I can tell, all filaments should be glowing if the machine (and thus the drawer) have power turned on (I assume via the AC contactor on the back of the headstock). I'm not sure where to check to verify that the drawer has power, but since the forward/reverse (F/R) contactors operate, I think that's a given. The troubleshooting guide says that if the F/R contactors operate, but the spindle won't turn and the 20A fuses are OK, the problem could be with the 6H6 tube, the 6N7 tube or both C16J tubes. Since both C16Js are dark, that may be your problem.

Hopefully one of the tube drive guys will step in here, because I'm seriously out of my lane. I understand the DC panel, but not the tube-drive electronics.

 

[RPratt94]

Sorry, the AP relay in the photo is wrong. The right side should be like the left, so that the arm will move freely. As shown, the relay won't operate. That was probably done to defeat the anti-plugging circuit, but the question is why? The AP relay's function is to open once the spindle gets above a certain speed, to keep you from "plug reversing" the spindle motor. But if the AP relay doesn't reclose, the spindle won't start.

On your model DC panel, the upper pair of fuses are apparently 20A (per drawing 20124).

So where you're at now the filaments on both C16J tubes are dark? What about the other tubes, are their filaments glowing? From what I can tell, all filaments should be glowing if the machine (and thus the drawer) have power turned on (I assume via the AC contactor on the back of the headstock). I'm not sure where to check to verify that the drawer has power, but since the forward/reverse (F/R) contactors operate, I think that's a given. The troubleshooting guide says that if the F/R contactors operate, but the spindle won't turn and the 20A fuses are OK, the problem could be with the 6H6 tube, the 6N7 tube or both C16J tubes. Since both C16Js are dark, that may be your problem.

Hopefully one of the tube drive guys will step in here, because I'm seriously out of my lane. I understand the DC panel, but not the tube-drive electronics.

Ok, glad my intuition was correct with the AP relay, not sure why it would be that way yet.

Both C16J tubes and the 6N060 tube are dark. The 6X5GT tube has a faint glow. Both the 6H6 and 6N7 tubes are black though, so no telling. They do get hot though.
Upon close inspection, I did notice a white powder inside the right C16J tube which doesn't seem like a great thing probably

(All pictures taken with power to the machine/main contactor engaged after warmup period)

 

[m-lud]

The works in a drawer was followed by the similar modular drive controls.
Below is a link to a operator's manual.
Pdf download. On page 10 and 11 is a sequence of operation for the Modular drive

This may be different than how yours works but could follow the same sequence of operation.

It may help your electrician understand the drive. I could be off base with this so just use it acordingly.

Monarch Machine Tool Co. - Publication Reprints - Model 10EE Manual | VintageMachinery.org

Here is a list of Monarch literature. You may find one for the Waid that has the same sequence giude.

Monarch Machine Tool Co. - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org

 

[jbacc]

Ok, glad my intuition was correct with the AP relay, not sure why it would be that way yet.

Both C16J tubes and the 6N060 tube are dark. The 6X5GT tube has a faint glow. Both the 6H6 and 6N7 tubes are black though, so no telling. They do get hot though.
Upon close inspection, I did notice a white powder inside the right C16J tube which doesn't seem like a great thing probably

(All pictures taken with power to the machine/main contactor engaged after warmup period)

You might try going to the Scissio Controls Website and send an email to Tim Jones. He is a member here but I don't think he drops by any longer. He was extremely helpful to me via email with some minor issues with my 1962 Module drive. Mine already had his solid state C16J Thyratron Tube replacements already installed and they work great. Tim is a smart guy and his advice has been very helpful.

Scissio Controls

Products for home and building automation

www.scissiocontrols.com

Cheers,

Joe

 

[Cal Haines]

OK, I guess it's up to me.

Can you pull the drawer out and take a series of photos so that I can see where everything is? In particular we're interested in any labeled terminals.

The C16Js, 6H6 and 6N7 tubes are all part of the armature drive circuit; it seems odd that they're all dark. We need to verify that they have power. One of the terminal strips should have terminals S1, A29 and A30. We should see 285 VAC between A29 & S1, and between A30 & S1. Somewhere there's a transformer with three leads on the secondary, two are labeled A, the third GA2. We should see 25 VAC between the A leads.

285 VAC can hurt or kill you, so don't attempt to measure this stuff unless you know what you're doing.

 

[daryl bane]

I'm with Cal on this. I don't think that all those tubes would go bad at the same time, but they are not exactly new either. I haven't looked it up, but Russ Kepler posted a WIAD build out wiring schematic a few( make that many) years ago. This is what they used at the factory to build the WIAD. It is alot more detailed than the simplified one that is everywhere. For me, it was invaluable when I completely rewired mine. I am in no way an electronics guy, but older schematics like this are much easier (for me) to follow and figure out. Point A to Point B , I love it. If you can't find it here, let me know and I will look thru my stuff and see if I can find it. Hate to be a pessimist, but unless you yourself, or can find a kindred spirit electrician guy, this will be a difficult , finicky fix, even if it turns out to be something simple. And just moving those brittle wires around can cause more headaches. On mine (1959) all the cloth wiring was bad or going and I'm sure yours unless it was all replaced is the same, irregardless of any of the other antique components. But ... please don't let them scrap it.