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Monarch 10EE WiaD - Not turning

Mr_CNC_guy

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Location
New England
Ok, glad my intuition was correct with the AP relay, not sure why it would be that way yet.

Both C16J tubes and the 6N060 tube are dark. The 6X5GT tube has a faint glow. Both the 6H6 and 6N7 tubes are black though, so no telling. They do get hot though.
Upon close inspection, I did notice a white powder inside the right C16J tube which doesn't seem like a great thing probably

(All pictures taken with power to the machine/main contactor engaged after warmup period)
If there is a white powder inside the tube, then it is almost certainly bad. It is likely the getter material has absorbed as much gas as it can. This is probably due to a crack in the glass. The getter is often seen as a shiny mirrored area on the inside of the glass. It is a highly reactive metal that has condensed on the glass during the manufacturing process. Over the life of the tube, gas will slowly leak in and be absorbed by the getter. This causes the silvery color to turn darker. Eventually it turns white. A darker getter means that the tube is not running at its optimum performance, when it is white the tube is dead.
 

RPratt94

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
Thank you all for your input, I do not know enough about electrical myself to dig into it much deeper, so I am ordering new old stock 6H6 and 6N7 tubes (tested) and a pair of Scissio C16J solid state replacements to see if that will fix it. We did get a schematic from Monarch for our "unusual" variation of 10EE if anyone cares to look.
 

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RPratt94

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
I lied, I
OK, I guess it's up to me.

Can you pull the drawer out and take a series of photos so that I can see where everything is? In particular we're interested in any labeled terminals.

The C16Js, 6H6 and 6N7 tubes are all part of the armature drive circuit; it seems odd that they're all dark. We need to verify that they have power. One of the terminal strips should have terminals S1, A29 and A30. We should see 285 VAC between A29 & S1, and between A30 & S1. Somewhere there's a transformer with three leads on the secondary, two are labeled A, the third GA2. We should see 25 VAC between the A leads.

285 VAC can hurt or kill you, so don't attempt to measure this stuff unless you know what you're doing.
I lied in my last reply, I checked the best I could.
A29&S1 is 330
A30&S1 is 290
I was able to locate a GA2, but not the other 2 A leads
 

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m-lud

Stainless
Joined
Sep 4, 2016
Have you gone through and gave each wire a wiggle for being loose. I sometimes give each screw a quarter or half turn loose then wiggle and then retighten. Oxidation sometimes grows in a connection.
I know your wires may be brittle so take care with them.
Kill the power. Capacitors sometimes carry residual power.
 
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Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
... I checked the best I could.
A29&S1 is 330
A30&S1 is 290
I was able to locate a GA2, but not the other 2 A leads
Thanks for the photos. That helps.

The C16J have power to the anodes. Good.

The two A terminals are the heaters for the C16J tubes. It may be that the leads go directly from the transformer to the tube sockets. Have a look under the tube sockets and see if you find wires labeled 'A'. It looks like there are ten or so pass-through terminals at the bottom of the panel, below the tubes. Look there. Also also can you post some photos that show the front of the "tombstone" with the tubes and showing the area under the C16Js?

We should also check the heaters for the other tubes. Should see the following AC voltages between these terminals:
  • 2.5 VAC between 'C' terminal pair
  • 2.5 VAC between 'D' terminal pair
  • 6.3 VAC between 'B' terminal pair
See if you can figure out where the two heater transformers are located. Each one should have a bundle with 6 leads with the following colors: red, orange, yellow, green, brown and black-white. Only the black-white lead and one of the other 5 leads should be connected (I assume the other four are taped off or something). Those leads are what control the primary voltages to the heater transformers and need to be connected to produce the correct secondary (heater) voltage. I would expect both transformers to be the same size.

Look carefully at everything for signs that something got hot. Look for damaged insulation on wire. Be careful messing with those old wires, the insulation can be very brittle. Looking at the white paper wire labels, it's possible that someone has been through an replaced a bunch of the wires.

on edit: changed VDC to VAC
 
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RPratt94

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
Thanks for the photos. That helps.

The C16J have power to the anodes. Good.

The two A terminals are the heaters for the C16J tubes. It may be that the leads go directly from the transformer to the tube sockets. Have a look under the tube sockets and see if you find wires labeled 'A'. It looks like there are ten or so pass-through terminals at the bottom of the panel, below the tubes. Look there. Also also can you post some photos that show the front of the "tombstone" with the tubes and showing the area under the C16Js?

We should also check the heaters for the other tubes. Should see the following DC voltages between these terminals:
  • 2.5 VDC between 'C' terminal pair
  • 2.5 VDC between 'D' terminal pair
  • 6.3 VDC between 'B' terminal pair
See if you can figure out where the two heater transformers are located. Each one should have a bundle with 6 leads with the following colors: red, orange, yellow, green, brown and black-white. Only the black-white lead and one of the other 5 leads should be connected (I assume the other four are taped off or something). Those leads are what control the primary voltages to the heater transformers and need to be connected to produce the correct secondary (heater) voltage. I would expect both transformers to be the same size.

Look carefully at everything for signs that something got hot. Look for damaged insulation on wire. Be careful messing with those old wires, the insulation can be very brittle. Looking at the white paper wire labels, it's possible that someone has been through an replaced a bunch of the wires.

I still have not been able to find the A terminals. All of the wires connected to the back of the "tombstone" are unlabeled and bundled up. There are 3 pairs of transformers that I see, small, medium and large sizes. I don't see any unconnected wires immediately. Nothing looks like it got overly hot

I am not very knowledgeable on electrical, but should my DC voltages be alternating positive to negative and back?

I have:
6 VDC between Cs
5.5 VDC between Ds
13 VDC between Bs

but they all alternate about the same, for example +13v to -13v (what I called 13 VDC) over about 5 seconds or so, and then back constantly. Not sure if this is a duty cycle type thing or an issue
 

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Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
Senior moment on my part. These are directly connected to the secondaries of the B-C-D filament transformer, so of course they are AC voltages. I'll correct the earlier post.
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
A local 10EE owner was kind enough to let me spend some looking at their WiaD drive and I was able to learn a number of things. I also spent time on the phone with Tim at Scisso, going over the 20122 wiring diagram, and we figured out a number of things that aren't obvious from the diagram.

The C16J tube filament leads are the two on the left, under each tube, connected to the black leads from the tubes:
20230822_061926-jpg.406073

Check the AC voltage between the left terminal pair. You should see 2.5 VAC. In fact, anything above 2.75 VAC can damage the tubes.

You'll want to use alligator clips to connect your meter to the A-A terminals under the left C16J tube, while the drive is OFF. There's a lot of high voltage circuitry there and you don't want your hands anywhere near the tubes when they're energized. In fact, some vacuum tubes can hold a lot over energy when they're off, so it's best to keep clear unless you know that they've been discharged.

The filament (heater) transformers are the two transformers on the left side (looking in from the tube side), at the bottom:
20230821_064851-jpg.405980

Note that there is a bundle of four wires (red, orange, yellow and brown) coming out of the windings on the near side of each transformer, routing to the left and above each transformer. These are the unused wires from a group of five primary tap wires, one of which is used to select the primary voltage for the installation. Note that a black and green wire are paired together and route over the top of the transformers; pairing the green wire with the black (common) wire selects a primary voltage of 224 VAC (or 448 VAC, if the high voltage transformers were installed). If the wrong pair of primary tap wires are used for the installed voltage, the secondary (filament) voltages will be wrong and the tubes can be damaged.

Please pull the bundles of four wires out and take a photo, so that we can see how the unused ends are terminated.
Check the AC voltages of the four filament transformer secondaries: A-A, B-B, C-C and D-D. B-B should be 6.3 VAC; the rest should be 2.5 VAC.
 

RPratt94

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
A local 10EE owner was kind enough to let me spend some looking at their WiaD drive and I was able to learn a number of things. I also spent time on the phone with Tim at Scisso, going over the 20122 wiring diagram, and we figured out a number of things that aren't obvious from the diagram.

The C16J tube filament leads are the two on the left, under each tube, connected to the black leads from the tubes:
20230822_061926-jpg.406073

Check the AC voltage between the left terminal pair. You should see 2.5 VAC. In fact, anything above 2.75 VAC can damage the tubes.

You'll want to use alligator clips to connect your meter to the A-A terminals under the left C16J tube, while the drive is OFF. There's a lot of high voltage circuitry there and you don't want your hands anywhere near the tubes when they're energized. In fact, some vacuum tubes can hold a lot over energy when they're off, so it's best to keep clear unless you know that they've been discharged.

The filament (heater) transformers are the two transformers on the left side (looking in from the tube side), at the bottom:
20230821_064851-jpg.405980

Note that there is a bundle of four wires (red, orange, yellow and brown) coming out of the windings on the near side of each transformer, routing to the left and above each transformer. These are the unused wires from a group of five primary tap wires, one of which is used to select the primary voltage for the installation. Note that a black and green wire are paired together and route over the top of the transformers; pairing the green wire with the black (common) wire selects a primary voltage of 224 VAC (or 448 VAC, if the high voltage transformers were installed). If the wrong pair of primary tap wires are used for the installed voltage, the secondary (filament) voltages will be wrong and the tubes can be damaged.

Please pull the bundles of four wires out and take a photo, so that we can see how the unused ends are terminated.
Check the AC voltages of the four filament transformer secondaries: A-A, B-B, C-C and D-D. B-B should be 6.3 VAC; the rest should be 2.5 VAC.
Thank you, I should've figured that out to be honest. Knowing that, here are my results

A-A(2.5?)= 1.8VAC
B-B(6.3?)= 5.6VAC
C-C(2.5?)= 2.0VAC
D-D(2.5?)= 2.0VAC

The unused wires are just snipped off and stuck in an unshrunk piece of shrink tubing and tucked away above
I am told that we have 208v in the shop if that helps with the transformer wire arrangement
 

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RPratt94

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
I have my replacements for the 6H6, 6N7 and C16J tubes now, is there anything I should be concerned about before trying them? Going to swap the parts out in the morning hopefully. Special thank you to Tim Jones at Scissio Controls for the help so far as well
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
The Scisso modules don't care about filament voltage, but the actual vacuum tubes do. A metal tag on the tombstone, behind the right hand C16J, says that the filament voltage must be between 2.25 and 2.75 volts.

According to the schematic you posted, the filament transformer taps for 208 volts are the orange wire. You're probably going to have to unfasten the front "tombstone" and tip it forward to get to the connections to the filament transformers. (Obviously, remove all the tubes before you do that.) Locate the connections to the green filament transformer wires, disconnect them and connect the orange leads in their place. Use tape or heatshrink to insulated the end of the now unused green wires and put them back with the other unused tap wires. Hopefully once you power it back up the filament voltage will be right. I would go back to the old tubes until you have the filament voltage corrected. Be prepared to try a different tap if you're no close to 2.5 VAC.

While you're in there, please take photos of the stuff hidden between the tombstones. Inspect the resistors on the back of the front tombstone for signs of overheating. Check for loose or damaged wires, cold solder joints, etc.

How long has the machine been in use in this shop?

Be aware that any time that the main disconnect for the machine is closed, the filament transformers will be on and the tubes hot. It's not enough to just hit the stop button on the front when you're done for the day, you need to throw the main disconnect.
 

RPratt94

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
The Scisso modules don't care about filament voltage, but the actual vacuum tubes do. A metal tag on the tombstone, behind the right hand C16J, says that the filament voltage must be between 2.25 and 2.75 volts.

According to the schematic you posted, the filament transformer taps for 208 volts are the orange wire. You're probably going to have to unfasten the front "tombstone" and tip it forward to get to the connections to the filament transformers. (Obviously, remove all the tubes before you do that.) Locate the connections to the green filament transformer wires, disconnect them and connect the orange leads in their place. Use tape or heatshrink to insulated the end of the now unused green wires and put them back with the other unused tap wires. Hopefully once you power it back up the filament voltage will be right. I would go back to the old tubes until you have the filament voltage corrected. Be prepared to try a different tap if you're no close to 2.5 VAC.

While you're in there, please take photos of the stuff hidden between the tombstones. Inspect the resistors on the back of the front tombstone for signs of overheating. Check for loose or damaged wires, cold solder joints, etc.

How long has the machine been in use in this shop?

Be aware that any time that the main disconnect for the machine is closed, the filament transformers will be on and the tubes hot. It's not enough to just hit the stop button on the front when you're done for the day, you need to throw the main disconnect.
Will do in the morning, thanks!

We have been using it in the shop for almost 2 years now, it seemed to run fine with the exception of max RPM being ~1500 and occasionally bogging down with a pretty standard cut.

I always told the other guys that, but I know a few times that I went to use it, they had just turned the work light off and left it on overnight. I always hit the main switch after use to attempt to conserve the tubes. I will make that happen in the future.

I appreciate the help so far and I am getting excited with thinking we might be close to running again!
 

RPratt94

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
I rewired to the orange line and replaced my C16J tubes with the Scissio Controls replacements and it now runs better than it ever has! I also replaced the 6H6 and 6N7 tubes just for good measure, but I'm hanging on to the old ones for backups. Thank you everyone for your help. Is there anything I should do with the old tubes? They are pretty definitely busted. I did take a few more pictures inside the tombstone, but I will have to get on that later.

Thanks again everyone
 

jbacc

Hot Rolled
Joined
May 5, 2009
Location
New Jersey
I rewired to the orange line and replaced my C16J tubes with the Scissio Controls replacements and it now runs better than it ever has! I also replaced the 6H6 and 6N7 tubes just for good measure, but I'm hanging on to the old ones for backups. Thank you everyone for your help. Is there anything I should do with the old tubes? They are pretty definitely busted. I did take a few more pictures inside the tombstone, but I will have to get on that later.

Thanks again everyone
I'm glad that this fine machine was saved. Kudos to you and all who assisted!

Cheers.
 

rke[pler

Diamond
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Location
Peralta, NM USA
I always told the other guys that, but I know a few times that I went to use it, they had just turned the work light off and left it on overnight. I always hit the main switch after use to attempt to conserve the tubes. I will make that happen in the future.

If I remember right the pilot light on the start switch was not working. That's often simply the bulb burning out. The bulb is easily accessed on the standard switch by unscrewing the button case. I recall the bulb to be a GE 46 or 48.

Maybe having the indicator lamp working would help others as a reminder the lathes power is on.

Glad you got things going. You might want to go through a drive tuning. It's pretty simple and will help you get the most from the lathe.
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
I rewired to the orange line and replaced my C16J tubes with the Scissio Controls replacements and it now runs better than it ever has! I also replaced the 6H6 and 6N7 tubes just for good measure, but I'm hanging on to the old ones for backups. Thank you everyone for your help. Is there anything I should do with the old tubes? They are pretty definitely busted. I did take a few more pictures inside the tombstone, but I will have to get on that later.

Thanks again everyone
Good deal! What was the filament voltage after the wiring change?

Where are the filament transformer primary connections made? Did you take any photos? I'm also curious about the connections between the lower (armature filament) transformer and the terminals under the C16Js.
 

RPratt94

Plastic
Joined
Aug 16, 2023
If I remember right the pilot light on the start switch was not working. That's often simply the bulb burning out. The bulb is easily accessed on the standard switch by unscrewing the button case. I recall the bulb to be a GE 46 or 48.

Maybe having the indicator lamp working would help others as a reminder the lathes power is on.

Glad you got things going. You might want to go through a drive tuning. It's pretty simple and will help you get the most from the lathe.
I will look into tuning, thank you for the light info! I was able to find an LED replacement on ebay if anyone is interested

Good deal! What was the filament voltage after the wiring change?

Where are the filament transformer primary connections made? Did you take any photos? I'm also curious about the connections between the lower (armature filament) transformer and the terminals under the C16Js.
To be honest, it wasn't back up to where it was supposed to be 100%, but closer. Lathe seems to run fine and I have annoyed some people just by getting it running again already, so it will probably just live like that. 2.5V was measuring about 2.1V and 6.3V was about 6V.

Here are a few pictures that I took before touching anything, if you want anything more, I can get them but it may be a bit. The filament transformer colored leads were both connected to L2 on the terminal
 

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