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Monarch 10ee WiaD speed pulsations, need advice

Bodgit

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Location
Glen Allen, VA USA
Hi,
My 1956 WiaD Monarch lathe (hobby machine) has a problem with speed pulsations at lower speeds, won't go up to maximum speed. Max speed in back gear is 350rpm.
I followed the troubleshooting guide in the manual and replaced several of the small tubes with no improvement.
It was previously having trouble with speed adjustment as it would not run at slow speeds , 400 rpm. The problem started while I was taking a heavy cut on steel at 300 rpm. The Thyratron tubes are all glowing appropriately.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Steve
 

mooserov

Aluminum
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Go watch dee Dee's video he just put up about trimming his 10ee. Explains the speed maintainer? Circuit and shows the pulsating when it is too high. Affects top speed too. Video is part 2 of 2
 

jbacc

Hot Rolled
Joined
May 5, 2009
Location
New Jersey
Go watch dee Dee's video he just put up about trimming his 10ee. Explains the speed maintainer? Circuit and shows the pulsating when it is too high. Affects top speed too. Video is part 2 of 2
Dee's video is referring to a module drive and was very helpful to me. I don't think the components and procedure is the same for a WIAD Drive 10EE.

Cheers!
 

rke[pler

Diamond
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Location
Peralta, NM USA
Can you hear or see any of the relays click on the DC panel when it's cycling? That can be a problem with the field acceleration relay. When did the drive last run correctly?
 

daryl bane

Titanium
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Location
East Texas
Thought I would ask, you said you went thru the troubleshooting guide, but have you tried to do the EE WIAD electronic adjustment procedure? I found that the compensation pot is very touchy, and it will pulse if not spot on.
 

Bodgit

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Location
Glen Allen, VA USA
Can you hear or see any of the relays click on the DC panel when it's cycling? That can be a problem with the field acceleration relay. When did the drive last run correctly?
Yes the contactor is clicking on and off. It ran well last Thursday morning and the problem started mid cut on a piece of steel.
Steve
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
Did the machine come with wiring diagrams? If so, what are the drawing numbers?

How many resistors do you have in the upper-right corner of the panel? What resistance values are marked? Please post a photo of the DC control panel.
 

Bodgit

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Location
Glen Allen, VA USA
Wiring diagram from manual
 

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rke[pler

Diamond
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Location
Peralta, NM USA
When I had a problem like that it turned out that the arm and the stop on the relay were sticking. I thought that it was from magnetism but the issue was simpler than that - there was a bit of oxidized oil that would latch onto the arm when it was closed. A cotton bud with some solvent cleaned the area up and solved the problem.
 

Bodgit

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Location
Glen Allen, VA USA
When I had a problem like that it turned out that the arm and the stop on the relay were sticking. I thought that it was from magnetism but the issue was simpler than that - there was a bit of oxidized oil that would latch onto the arm when it was closed. A cotton bud with some solvent cleaned the area up and solved the problem.
Thanks, I will check that out Russ!
I am also considering doing a conversion to the Parker 514c/507 dc controls recommended on this board. The WiaD lathe is a wonderful machine I have owned many years so replacing the DC drive with a modern one may be needed.
Steve
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
Thanks for the photos. I don't know nearly as much about tube drive 10EEs as guys like Russ, but I do know about the WiaD DC Control panel, which is very similar to the one used on square-dial motor/generator (MG) machines. Both panels use the same Cutler-Hammer No. 222 Field-Acceleration (FA) relay.

The two drawings that you posted appear to be from the 1956 WiaD-drive 10EE manual. Note that those drawings don't match your panel. The panel shown doesn't include the two resistors in the upper-right corner and uses an AP relay with only one one winding, the series winding.

The function of the FA relay is to sense when the armature current is high, as when the spindle is accelerating under load, and put the field to 100% to help the spindle accelerate. In MG drives, the FA relay does this by bypassing the field-weakening rheostat, wired in series with the spindle motor's field. In WiaD drives, the relay interacts with the 6SF5 tube. (Not being a vacuum tube guy, I'm not sure how that part of the circuit works.)

The FA relay used on your panel (and all square-dial) panels have two windings: a series winding and a shunt winding. The series winding connects in series with the spindle motor's armature and directly senses the armature current. The shunt winding is connected in series with the two resistors and wired between E1-2 and F1. E1-2 and F1 are the two sides of the bus that powers the DC panel, among other things and should see a constant voltage. It appears that at some point Monarch switched to an AP relay with only a series winding (which is what your manual shows).

What it looks like to me is that your armature is drawing too much current at low speeds and that's what's triggering the AP relay. If you have access to a clamp-on ammeter that can read DC amps, check the armature current when the machine is operating normally and when the AP relay is acting up. (Make sure you know what you're doing if you're going to attempt that measurement, as lethal voltages are present on the DC panel.) I would also check the armature voltage (DC voltage between A1 and A2) and the voltage between E1-2 and F1. All of the measurements can be made at the terminals at the bottom of the DC panel. Armature current and voltage should not exceed the values on the motor's name plate. E1-2 to F1 should constant at about 115 VDC.

If it turns out that the AP relay has a problem, I have a line on several replacement relays. Don't be in a hurry to replace this drive. It's lasted almost two thirds of a century; fix this problem and it will probably run for decades more.
 

Bodgit

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Location
Glen Allen, VA USA
Thanks for the photos. I don't know nearly as much about tube drive 10EEs as guys like Russ, but I do know about the WiaD DC Control panel, which is very similar to the one used on square-dial motor/generator (MG) machines. Both panels use the same Cutler-Hammer No. 222 Field-Acceleration (FA) relay.

The two drawings that you posted appear to be from the 1956 WiaD-drive 10EE manual. Note that those drawings don't match your panel. The panel shown doesn't include the two resistors in the upper-right corner and uses an AP relay with only one one winding, the series winding.

The function of the FA relay is to sense when the armature current is high, as when the spindle is accelerating under load, and put the field to 100% to help the spindle accelerate. In MG drives, the FA relay does this by bypassing the field-weakening rheostat, wired in series with the spindle motor's field. In WiaD drives, the relay interacts with the 6SF5 tube. (Not being a vacuum tube guy, I'm not sure how that part of the circuit works.)

The FA relay used on your panel (and all square-dial) panels have two windings: a series winding and a shunt winding. The series winding connects in series with the spindle motor's armature and directly senses the armature current. The shunt winding is connected in series with the two resistors and wired between E1-2 and F1. E1-2 and F1 are the two sides of the bus that powers the DC panel, among other things and should see a constant voltage. It appears that at some point Monarch switched to an AP relay with only a series winding (which is what your manual shows).

What it looks like to me is that your armature is drawing too much current at low speeds and that's what's triggering the AP relay. If you have access to a clamp-on ammeter that can read DC amps, check the armature current when the machine is operating normally and when the AP relay is acting up. (Make sure you know what you're doing if you're going to attempt that measurement, as lethal voltages are present on the DC panel.) I would also check the armature voltage (DC voltage between A1 and A2) and the voltage between E1-2 and F1. All of the measurements can be made at the terminals at the bottom of the DC panel. Armature current and voltage should not exceed the values on the motor's name plate. E1-2 to F1 should constant at about 115 VDC.

If it turns out that the AP relay has a problem, I have a line on several replacement relays. Don't be in a hurry to replace this drive. It's lasted almost two thirds of a century; fix this problem and it will probably run for decades more.
Thanks Cal, I will make those measurements today and post the results.
Steve
 

Bodgit

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 27, 2002
Location
Glen Allen, VA USA
So the machine running at 400 rpm (best it will do in back gear)
(DC voltage between A1 and A2) = 38v
and the voltage between E1-2 and F1 = reads OL on Fluke meter
When acting up: voltage varies 30 to 11 to OL
F1-F2 voltage OL
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
What model is the meter?

OL probably means out of range, in this case, that the voltage exceeds the voltage range that the meter is in. Are you certain that you were in DC voltage mode? If it's not a auto-ranging meter, start out in the highest voltage range.

Is it the case that the machine runs OK in open belt?
 








 
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