Monarch 14 C Spindle Removal

[wildo]

This will be somewhat of a guide for anyone removing model C spindle, oil pump disassembly, shift forks and reverse shaft.
My lathe is a 1944 14C, more documentation on it here. I made a seperate thread as I wanted to have an easily searchable guide in case anyone has similar issues.

I removed the spindle for 2 reasons; the headstock oil pump stopped working and there was an issue with the gear selector which I already knew about. After repairing my oil pump I get a drop every couple seconds in sight glass. I get a drop every time out of sight glass when pump plunger is manually depressed. If you have less I would suggest your pump filter needs to be replaced/check valve stuck etc.

You can remove the oil pump without pulling the spindle. I would suggest 1/4" drive ratchet, some extensions and a flat screwdriver bit. It's a lot easier reinstalling pump if you replace the fillister head screws with 1/4" unc cap screws around 3/4" long for memory. I wouldn't advise pulling the spindle to just remove your oil pump, unless you have other issues going on.

While on topic of tools and supplies I would have following on hand;
Good hex keys
Good flat screwdrivers
3/8" drive hex bit sockets sizes 1/8" > 1/4"
Ideally a C spanner for spindle lock nuts
Maybe a slide hammer or ability to make something for reverse gear pins they're tapped 1/4"UNC . Mine weren't tight but yours could be.
Assorted set screws. It would be nice to replace with new. 1/4"UNC x 1/4"lg extended tip for gear retainer rings 92505A533 mcmaster
Diesel or kerosene for washing headstock
3/16" thick felt for oil pump pickup
Ideally new suction and outlet check valves for oil pump

Testing oil pump flow to ensure no clogged metering valves; removed oil supply line second in from right (only one without metering valve) and manually stroked pump;


I marked everything and quickly engraved match marks to speed up reinstall. Nothing is critical timed. Good time to mention not to try running the lathe with headstock cover off. Double good idea to isolate the power at this point too.




Bearing preload collars. These shouldn't be overly tight but your situation might be different. My c spanner not really the right size but it worked fine. Single set screw with bronze pad.


Remove both threaded collars, then there is 2 spacers both keyed 180*. They should be a slip fit. Remove them and the 2 woodruff keys.



Large reverse gear - top of photo, rearmost of headstock has one 3/8UNC set screw and one woodruff key. Small reverse gear - next one towards spindle nose has 2 pins. There should be a snap ring to retain them, but mine has lockwire.

The next gear after that (not pictured) - large spindle drive gear has a set screw which secures the gear to the small spindle gear carrier. You do not need to remove this set screw.



Small reverse gear retainer pins 1/4"UNC threaded for puller. I think these are a transition fit, you could likely use a bolt and some vice grips to extract if they were tight.


Next is the bull gear retainer ring. 3x 1/4UNC x 1/4 extended tip set screws not equal spaced - maked in blue in my picture. I marked mine as I had to tighten all of them when I got the lathe -the PO left practically every set screw loose in the headstock. More on that later


Remove 2x slotted stake screws front "oil deflector" 3&9 o'clock

 

[wildo]

Spindle is now ready to come out. A good deadblow hammer and some wood on rear of spindle will get it moving pretty easily.

I think most of the resistance is encountered in the first half inch, just till front oil deflector/ spindle nose end cap is free..


PO left a bunch of burrs on both of the reverse gears/spindle so I had to tap these backwards as I was moving spindle outwards. They would've slid down the spindle regardless after getting stuck in headstock casting but I wanted to lessen the amount of spindle hitting that was needed.The large (rearward) reverse gear has a woodruff key. I didn't need to remove mine.

After cleaning up the burrs they were a transition fit. Nothing on this is an interference fit. If you have to hit something hard take another think about what you're doing.



Keep dragging the spindle out.. It's not as heavy as I expected. Maybe 10 or 15lb heavier than headstock cover. But not something that should be dropped.



Once you're far enough out you can remove the large and small reverse gears, and reverse gear spacer. The rest of the gears will stay in place.
I had a hammer handle in rear of spindle to lift the threads clear of the rear spindle brg. You could also throw a layer of tape around threads to protect them just in case..

Note the wood chips in headstock. This is from hitting the reverse gears off the spindle. They were snug!


It wasn't really necessary to have spindle blocked up like this, but I didn't know the weight and was being cautious. The second time (lol) removing it I supported the front as shown in first photos, and then once the back of spindle was clear and free of the reverse gears I moved the blocking to the splined section and slid the whole lot forward.


Large reverse gear woodruff key for ref, 180* from retainer set screw.


Oil pump mounts to bracket/link assy with 4x fillister -flat- head screws. I tried removing the bracket and pump together with spindle installed but I was not able to get the oil pump out, and had to remove the pump from the bracket.
Don't bother trying to remove the pivot shaft/arm to get the clearance. Just remove the 4 screws. It's not fun but it is possible and less work/risky than removing the spindle.

 

[wildo]

Oil pump order from closest to check valve; coarse screen, fine screen, 1/4" felt, 'U' profile retainer ring, wire retainer ring.
The retainer ring was a bit of a pain to remove. Be careful with your fingers and pointy objects.


suction check valve unscrews normal. There is a flat seal under this. Aside from that there's no other seals (at least in my pump)
There was little wear in the bore/piston so I put everything in ultrasonic cleaner, tested check valves and re-assembled.



The shifter issues I was having were from the spindle clutch becoming un-keyed and slipping somewhere in the linkage. With the spindle in I could hardly see what was slipping so I tightened everything up I could reach and babied it till I had time to fix properly.

I washed out/flushed the headstock with diesel and a 10gpm filter cart for 2 hours a few months prior and it was still this filthy under the spindle!


To remove the shifter yoke shaft has to be pulled through oil level sight glass. Shaft tapped 3/8" unc for slide hammer. The slotted head set screws on the yokes and linkages are actually though pins. the hole goes thru all the way so you can tap out from other side if need.



My shift linkage issue was from this one being sheared. (how the heck)



I find it baffling that the way the PO fixed this was to drill and tap a new hole for the gear shift index and weld up the index stud.... this was from a few months earlier before I got the shift yoke back in alignment

 

[wildo]

pictures for reference






looking through shift yoke pin not fully threaded in.


I lightly honed the cast iron plain bushings in spindle gears. I also took a coarse scotch brite disc on die grinder and smoothed out the dog clutches and knocked off the burrs/raised edges.





If there's one tool I don't really need but I love using it's my 40105 precision punch and die set. One day when I'm rich I will buy the large size set.


I used an inner tube to replace the large cork gasket


Spindle washed and ready for install. Take an oil stone and knock off any burrs around set screw holes and key slots.



I will post remainder tomorrow

 

[wildo]

Re-assy. Put everything back where ya got it from. Don't forget bullgear retainer ring. It sort of sits in there helps if you engage bullgear clutch.
I put some grease in plain bushings to help with initial start. Oil is probably better to use or 105 lubriplate if you felt it was necessary. I am just paranoid.













I use loctite blue on all screws inside the headstock. Red is probably overkill.

To any readers who are on the ball you probably noticed the gear on the reverse (feed/lead screw) shaft which looks like it's missing a retaining ring.
I noticed this too while I was cleaning and going through the headstock. I was pretty sick and in the middle of a lathe job when I had to stop to do all of this. Somehow I managed to convince myself that no one would put the reverse shaft back together without the retainer ring, plus the holes in the shaft aren't even threaded for set screws.
After getting the spindle in and everything lockwired I had another look and said jeez Will, you're an idiot. The holes aren't threaded because the threads are in the collar that's missing.

Some defeated googling and trawling through parts manuals determined the spindle would have to come out again. I couldn't find hardly any pictures or documentation on the C monarch reverse shaft so I took extra pictures.
Second times always faster. 3rd time it's like ballet.



Extended tip set screw has to be removed and bearing retainer cap screws off. My one not tight, just a couple taps had it off.




Shaft pulls out after removing nut, washer stud gear and seal cover. You probably have a retaining ring for your reverse gear, so remove those set screws. Bearings light interference outer race, transition fit inner race.

 

[wildo]

order of assy; facing up - rear of lathe.Rear oil seal 1.875 x 2.6875 5/16"-3/8" thick. I couldn't get a seal so I did not replace. I will later on as I need to make a new seal ring/spacer that goes behind the gear.

5207 outer double row bearing, 5205 inner. Oil groove on first spacer goes toward bearing - at least that's how it came apart, and what the wear patterns indicate. ***edit*** looking at it again the oil grooves should go towards the gear as its acting as a thrust bearing

Second bearing spacer goes flat side toward gear, spigot toward bearing.

Retainer ring I sort of guessed/copied the existing retainer rings. I made it 1.751" x 2.062" x .375" wide. 3x 1/4"UNC 120* spacing





Output gear spacer and gear. Once again how the heck do people manage to wreck things like this. They were running the quadrant gears so tight on this it turned the gear and components blue. WTF





I had to make extended set screws. I had to go to a machine shop to find set screws. No stores up here carry ANY set screws.







Re-assy pretty straight forward. Put the inner bearing in before anything else. Make it same depth as old one. The seal carrier plate/bearing retainer had multiple thickness gaskets to lightly preload/add clearance to assy. I used a thicker gasket paper, so on re-assy after tightening output gear nut the shaft got tight to turn.
I used loctite on nut and didn't tighten it all the way as I need to get a job finished on the lathe.

I am sick of scraping silicone off the headstock cover so I made a gasket. Followed the classic detroit diesel spec and stuck that sumbitch to the cover with #2 aviation goop #80016



I was shocked at how much crap was still in the headstock so let my filter cart running for a few hours to help get some of the debris out of there before start up. I then ran spindle for a few hours with filter cart connected. Much like other parts of the lathe there is a lot of unnecessary damage to gears and bearings in the headstock caused by dirty/no oil and running things too tight. Probably too little too late for the ol girl but I gotta do my best.

After test running there is more gear noise from headstock. I pulled cover to double check everything/make sure there's no binding etc. I put this down to the large reverse gears running in a different position to where they're used to being? Before the lathe was practically silent with reverse shaft clutch in neutral, now there's a constant rollover even in neutral. It's pretty neat how the feed was functioning fine even with the reverse gear floating around on the shaft. I guess the helical gears keep each other running straight.

Maybe it will get to come apart again. Looking at it and thinking a bit more I suspect they made a longer spacer for behind the reverse gear, which would make sense why it looks so goddamn awful.

 

[wildo]

Also setting spindle preload - tapered roller bearings need an amount of clearance for an oil film - there's not a figure because it is application specific. Wheel bearings maybe 003"-.005". It is way worse to have bearings too tight rather than too loose. . Get the spindle in. Tighten the nut while rotating the spindle. Give it a few taps w/ a dead blow to make sure the bearings are seated. Setup your dial indicator on the front of spindle. Tap the spindle rearward, zero indicator and then use a pry bar and try and move spindle forward. I would say you want .0005" - .001" movement for a starting point. I had to back mine off some more after running the lathe for a while. Your spindle nut is probably barely tight. That's fine & why they have locking set screws and a jam nut.

Sort of off topic; last summer I rebuilt brakes and hubs on this reach stacker. The wheel hub weighed suspended in picture weighed around 1500lb. Inside taper roller bearing 200x310x70mm

One side was pretty messed up on the axle where a previous bearing failure occured. Not wanting my name on any future failures I gooped on the loctite retaining compound on the inner race. This was a mistake because by the time I had it ready to torque the bearing to check preload it had started setting and make it bloody difficult to move the hub in and out. Besides that the manufacturer didn't give any real preload specs. The service manual stated shim bearing cap till 5nm rolling torque preload, but doesn't state where that is being measured from - the outside or the axle centerline? Plus it was way more than 5nm to the hub with no preload. A dana 60 diff pinion is like 4nm rolling torque. Really they should've given an initial set torque on the bearing retainer cap screws with no shims, measure the gap and add XYZ additional shims. I did something similar but it was a bit of a guess as to what the setup torque and bearing clearance should be

 

[gustafson]

Saved this thread to my computer
I love my 12CK, sometimes more than my EE
If I ever get back into the head, this will come in handy

 

[Puukko]

This thread has been an absolute life saver for me, especially over the last few days.

 

[beckerkumm]

Wonderful thread. I've got to go into my 60 and this is helpful.

As to the pump, I believe the order on my new pump was fine, coarse, felt. I might be mistaken but it doesn't seem logical that the fine mesh would precede the coarse as in your pictures unless the coarse merely acts as a spacer to the valve. Dave