Monarch 16 CY value

[Chips Everywhere]

I was hoping I can get some feedback on a machine I am interested in getting.

I went to check out some mill tooling last week and I stumbled across what I would call *Mint* 1946 Model 16 CY 54"(between centers) Monarch. I don't really need the 54", but being that this machine is in pretty good shape I am ok with it occupying an extra 20" of floor space. The machine ways look immaculate, still has 98% of the factory paint, all the chrome on the handles is mint. It's like a time capsule. It's not a machinery dealer "liquid rebuild special". All the tags/badges show patina, but are not hammered away or or repainted etc. You can tell this machine has seen little use.

Comes with IN/Metric dials, a 8"? 3,4 jaw chuck, face plate, micrometer stop, steady rest, tool post/holders and Hardinge Quick 5C adapter.

Can a taper attachment be fitted this machine?

The gentleman who owns it is a nice guy who is getting out of the trade. I want to offer him a fair price for his machine. I would like some feedback on what a machine like this is worth. I tried doing some research, the prices I saw range from $1k -$5k. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Rigging would be around $1500.

 

[Rob F.]

I have one, pretty sure it a cw though. Weight is right around 6000 lbs. Mine has a taper attachment as do many of them. I paid $5K for mine but it had ALOT of tooling and a nice bridgeport with lots of tooling for that money.
Being yours is in mint condition and has metric/inch dials probably between $3-5K. Being not used much over the years be sure to check that all the oil system is flowing oil, sitting for long periods could have gummed up some lines or metering valves.

Sounds like a nice machine, pics are needed.

 

[johnoder]

I paid $2500 for my 1946 one owner CW16 X 102" 20 years ago - the one owner (Houston Power & Light) did not keep it pristine

 

[Chips Everywhere]

At the time, I didn't really intend on buying it, so i didn't take any pictures. After sleeping on it, I am interested in it now. Haha.

I'll ask the seller if he can take some more pictures.

 

[220swift]

You have a Rare chance to buy a Monarch in near mint shape, buy it.
Think of all the time, money and gas you could waste trying to find one like it.
You can find one that someone has cleaned up and repainted, but it's still half worn out.
A machine in near new shape is worth a premium.
Rigging the same On worn out machines or a machine. In good shape.
Check with the owner maybe he has a metric gear set.
Make sure the movers have insurance.
Post a few pictures.

Hal

 

[Chips Everywhere]

so offer like $4000?

@220swift, unfortunately no metric gears. I looked around.

Is a 5C Collet set up useful on a machine this size? From what I remember max RPM was 700. I'm guessing its best suited for work 2" and up.

 

[texasgeartrain]

If you are in NY, even up state, you are in one of the better buying areas for such things, at a bit better prices.

You can do really nice work between 300 and 700 rpm, and it does not need to be 2" diameter and bigger.

Pulley change on the electric motor, can take your top speed to 1000rpm without hurting it.

 

[220swift]

Chips
Did you buy some milling machine tooling from him ? How was he on pricing?
I would have him set the asking price and go from there.

Hal

 

[beckerkumm]

Bring some 3" steel and do some test turns and take some measurements. If the machine is really in great condition and sounds good, you won't find anything better new for 20-30K or maybe twice that. The bearings will handle 1100 rpm so the small bore is the only negative. All helical gearing in the headstock is unheard of anymore. When condition is good, price is irrelevant. Dave

 

[Chips Everywhere]

@220swift

I went to buy a small rotary table and indexer. Nothing else for mill for sale.

Ok. Thanks for the advise, I’ll ask him what he wants, if not I’ll make an offer.

Any things I should inspect that maybe problematic on these old machines?

 

[220swift]

If the lathe is wired up have the owner show you how it works and run it through it's gears. Check that both the feeding and threading work.
Ask the seller point blank if he knows of anything wrong or needs to be fixed with the lathe. Most people won't lie to you but they might not tell you if not ask.
The top,inside of the v way up by the headstock will show a ridge if there is much wear on the machine. Check for broken lever to see if the lathe has ever been tipped over.
Make sure you have enough power in your shop to run the lathe.

Good luck.

Hal

 

[Chips Everywhere]

If the lathe is wired up have the owner show you how it works and run it through it's gears. Check that both the feeding and threading work.
Ask the seller point blank if he knows of anything wrong or needs to be fixed with the lathe. Most people won't lie to you but they might not tell you if not ask.
The top,inside of the v way up by the headstock will show a ridge if there is much wear on the machine. Check for broken lever to see if the lathe has ever been tipped over.
Make sure you have enough power in your shop to run the lathe.

Good luck.

Hal

I gave it a quick appreciation look while I was there, no broken levers. I really was taken back by how clean and pretty this machine looked, I've only seen Monarchs that had been clapped out and mistreated.

The owner did mention that he had slipping issues with his clutch during the first few engagements, after it warmed up, then it didn't slip. Probably will need to service the clutch.

 

[texasgeartrain]

The owner did mention that he had slipping issues with his clutch during the first few engagements, after it warmed up, then it didn't slip. Probably will need to service the clutch.

Could be you have a little oil or grease on clutch disk from the lube at the bearing there. But it also has a manual adjustment right on the clutch.

You can tell by engaging and disengaging. If it pops in and out limply, or easily it needs an adjustment. It doesn't take a massive effort, but you want a little pop or snap during engage/disengage.

 

[*D'B=6bk]

I was offered $2,500 for my 30" 16CY before I restored it sight unseen. And it was in rough condition, no steady rest, no tooling, motor problems, one 3-jaw chuck that needed grinding, casting were mostly rust and multiple layers of failing paint.

After restoring it, I wouldn't take less than $5,000 for mine. Don't know if that's market value, but that's what it is worth to me.

Before & After

 

[Chips Everywhere]

I was offered $2,500 for my 30" 16CY before I restored it sight unseen. And it was in rough condition, no steady rest, no tooling, motor problems, one 3-jaw chuck that needed grinding, casting were mostly rust and multiple layers of failing paint.

After restoring it, I wouldn't take less than $5,000 for mine. Don't know if that's market value, but that's what it is worth to me.

Before & After
View attachment 340984

Nice, paint colors. Do you have a restoration thread? I’d like to see the before and after and the steps you took.

Planning on going to have another look at the machine and then I’ll grab some pics.

 

[Chips Everywhere]

Well, after negotiating back and forth with the owner. He thinks his machine is worth about $19k. He is convinced his machine is worth an extra $2k every time I talk to him. After a second look, the tooling is useable, but not in the best shape. The machine is in nice shape, I offered $9k, and that is about as much as I am willing to go.

Oh well, guess I'll keep looking. I may go with a later model, like a short lever with stock 1000rpm and a 30-36" between centers. So if anyone has any leads, please let me know.

 

[m-lud]

Well, after negotiating back and forth with the owner. He thinks his machine is worth about $19k. He is convinced his machine is worth an extra $2k every time I talk to him. After a second look, the tooling is useable, but not in the best shape. The machine is in nice shape, I offered $9k, and that is about as much as I am willing to go.

Oh well, guess I'll keep looking. I may go with a later model, like a short lever with stock 1000rpm and a 30-36" between centers. So if anyone has any leads, please let me know.

Inflation is out of control these days.
It's bad he's not being real. Online comparisons plus add for condition and tooling. He's fishing for a sucker.
You made a real good offer.

 

[Chips Everywhere]

Inflation is out of control these days.
It's bad he's not being real. Online comparisons plus add for condition and tooling. He's fishing for a sucker.
You made a real good offer.

I think he looks at the unreal prices on ebay for scrap liquid rebuild Monarchs from dealers and thinks he is sitting on a gold mine. They try to list $1k machines for $7k after a $20 oil paint job. I tried to explain that those machines sit for years on ebay because those prices are unrealistic, and showed him original post date so he didn't think I was BS him. I guess you can't reason with some people.

I am starting to question if it is original paint, if its not, someone did a very good job and took their time. I don't think he is going to find anyone wanting to pay $6k (+2k rigging) for it, let alone 9k. Plus it doesn't have a taper attachment, not a deal breaker, but a pain if you need to source one and install.

 

[marka12161]

I bought my 16CY for $2K. It had enough issues that i decided to do a complete rebuild. I disassembled the apron and replaced all the bearings. I intend to do the same to the QCGB and the headstock. I also had the bed reground and the saddle milled in preperation for turcite and scraping. I've got a lot of work ahead of me but i've got time.

 

[dana gear]

Pretty hard to go wrong with a Monarch, there built to last several lifetimes.
If it is sound, the ways are in good shape, nothing out of the ordinary wrong then actually 5 to 12 grand is not out of line. China imports the same size are going for 14-30 grand depending.