More problems for Boeing

[CITIZEN F16]

Boeing......"China Eastern 737-800 crash in Guangxi, southern China"

It is reported the the Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder have been recovered.

There is a prelim chart which appears to show the acft decent was not vertical. The chart is not official.


If interested here is link..scroll down the page to post 691 for a chart:

China Eastern 737-800 crashes in Guangxi, southern China - Page 14 - Airliners.net

I did not look at the charts but that aircraft hit the ground in a vertical position to me on the videos I saw. Unless the definition of vertical is 90 degrees +/- 1 degree and it hit at an 88 degree angle. Must have been a terrifying last minute for those poor people, the only comfort is they were all killed instantly and did not know what hit them. Pest in peace to the departed, thoughts and prayers to all those that will miss them.

 

[CITIZEN F16]

Yeah 696....Of course it is all speculation until the FDR is reviewed. The CVR (cockpit chit-chat) most probably should prove interesting.

With what looked to happen to that plane on video there was probably only a lot of screaming, yelling and cussing in Chinese on that voice recorder.

 

[EmGo]

IDK if that vid was the actual aircraft - afterall it looked strange that by chance, they were filming a part of a forest, and a plane just happened to fall in front of the lens?

Don't know if it's real or not but with a billion and a half people and everyone has a phone, most everything is going to be on a video somewhere. I wouldn't discount it just because it seems unlikely.

There's a lot more photos and stuff here (that's where the ones you see are coming from)

Passenger plane crashes in South China - Chinadaily.com.cn

 

[SeymourDumore]

Unless I misunderstood your question ...

Or I am misunderstanding the facts ...
I do not believe natural gas is being transported in it's gaseous form in any way other than pipelines.
So, in order to ship it via boat, truck or rail, it is liquified at the origin, shipped and then re-gasified at the destination to be sent to the consumers via pipelines.

I did not say a damm thing about oil transport, so cannot figure out where that comparison came from.
Perfectly aware that an LNG tanker is a completely different animal than an oil tanker.

What I did say is that - from what info was available - the total transportation costs of LNG vs onshore pipelines reach equilibrium at around the 2500 Km distances ( approx 2000 Km for offshore pipes )
after which LNG transportation becomes more economical.

So, back to the original question:
1: Is Russian gas cleaner than US gas?
2: Is Russian gas cheaper than US gas?

 

[EmGo]

I did not say a damm thing about oil transport, so cannot figure out where that comparison came from.

The comparisn is that oil can go anywhere pretty easily, and you were just using cost figures (as below.) But there's more to it than just cost. There's the number of available ships and the required facitlities. If they don't exist, it doesn't matter where the costs become the same. One of them can't be done.

Could it be done ? Sure, in 2 or 3 years. Think covid quarantine was bad ? Get out the sleeping bags, Yurop !

What I did say is that - from what info was available - the total transportation costs of LNG vs onshore pipelines reach equilibrium at around the 2500 Km distances ( approx 2000 Km for offshore pipes )
after which LNG transportation becomes more economical.

That's all fine and dandy but they don't even have any re-gassification plants in Germany ... and probably no ports with the facilities to handle the ships either. The US has apparently sent every ship it can to Europe and that's still only 1/10th of what the pipeline was delivering.

(That data came from a shipping site, sorry I shoulda saved the url but didn't)

That's where the comparison to oil is coming from. If it was oil you could just redirect ships, there's a lot and anywhere can handle them. But gas ain't like that.

Cost doesn't matter if you can't do it. Like putting 80,000 lbs on a Bridgeport, shop rate doesn't matter if the machine can't handle it.

 

[SeymourDumore]

That's all fine and dandy but they don't even have any re-gassification plants in Germany ... and probably no ports with the facilities to handle the ships either. The US has apparently sent every ship it can to Europe and that's still only 1/10th of what the pipeline was delivering.

(That data came from a shipping site, sorry I shoulda saved the url but didn't)

Link: Armada carrying US LNG heads to Europe, but it won’t be enough

But again, not answering the question!
We know that there are not enough vessels to carry enough of the fuel at this time to offset the loss of Russian natural gas.
Heck, we may not even have enough extraction capacity to handle the extra demand in 2 or 3 years.

That however does not change the fact that we ARE in fact shipping LNG to Europe!

So the question again is: How much more expensive is US gas when compared to Russian gas?

 

[EmGo]

So the question again is: How much more expensive is US gas when compared to Russian gas?

Seymour, you've been buying gasoline for years. You know how this works. It's going to cost as much as the oil companies can possibly get, plus about 10%.

Simple.

 

[Bill D]

There is no way I would want to be in a port that is taking in russian LNG. One ukrainian with a missile, its good night putin.
Gasoline is the same energy pound for pound as dynamite. I assume similar for LNG or propane.
Bill D.

 

[EmGo]

There is no way I would want to be in a port that is taking in russian LNG. One ukrainian with a missile, its good night putin.

You should apply at the State Department. You're definitely qualified for the job.

 

[Bill D]

750 kilotons equivalent. I do not think a manpad is far enough away for the user to live. I do not have a death wish. Hiroshima was only 12-16 kilotons. There is a reason california decided not to allow them to dock in the state. They have to go to Mexico instead.
Bill D

 

[EmGo]

750 kilotons equivalent. I do not think a manpad is far enough away for the user to live. I do not have a death wish. Hiroshima was only 12-16 kilotons. There is a reason california decided not to allow them to dock in the state. They have to go to Mexico instead.

No, seriously, I think you'd fit right in at State.

First off, Russia doesn't send natural gas to Europe in LNG ships. They have a pipeline. It travels through Ukraine. They pay Ukraine billions of dollars a year in transit fees, which just may have something to do with this. Last time we invaded a country it was a month after Hussein signed a contract with the rooskies instead of Brown & Root to build a pipeline to Aquaba. What a coincidence.

(You may remember them. They sent LBJ to Congress. Best government money can buy.)

Almost completed now is Nordstream 2 which does not travel through Ukraine. The US is furious about that, at least as far back as Trump and probably before. Lots of discussions about "sanctions" (aka extortion, "hey there buddy, you gots a real nice little country there, sure wouldn't want to see anything happen to it, wouldja ? Better do what we say ...") Why the US thinks it gets to tell Germany what to do, mmm, yeah. Totally innocent, I'm sure, nothing to do with this situation. Bad Putin, bad madman, crazed insane dictator ! All his fault !

And Germany doesn't have any LNG ports either, but let's just use our imagination. Let's say Russia sent an LNG tanker to Hamburg because a German company bought the gas because they need it and paid for it (oh wait ! the US says Germany can't buy stuff from Russia, so no dice ! uh-oh ! they are breaking Free Market rules by doing something we don't like !), then a Ukrainian with a smuggled missile blew it up ... and Hamburg along with it. Whom do you suppose Germany would be pissed-off at ? That would be the end of Putin, you think ? Not the clown in Ukraine ?

Yup. You're ready for prime time at State, probably jump direct to a mid-level position at $250,000/year plus bennies. You could help plan the next Bay of Pigs invasion, where them oppressed peasants will greet our boys with garlands of flowers and six-packs of beer.

 

[SeymourDumore]

First off, Russia doesn't send natural gas to Europe in LNG ships. They have a pipeline. It's called Nordstream and travels through Ukraine. They pay Ukraine billions of dollars a year in transit fees.

Umm... Yes, No and Yes.

Yes, Russia does not do LNG. They don't need to 'cos they have pipelines instead.

No, Nordstream is an offshore pipeline under the Baltic sea and unless Zselinski moved the borders quietly-like, it has nothing to do with Ukraine.

Yes, they do pay transit fees, but not to Ukraine, rather Poland, but even then, not for the Nordstream line, rather the onshore pipeline that runs along the southern border of Belarus
which has a pipehead in the western edge of Poland.

 

[EmGo]

No, Nordstream is an offshore pipeline under the Baltic sea and unless Zselinski moved the borders quietly-like, it has nothing to do with Ukraine.

Wait, you're half right and I blew it on the name. Both Nordstreams bypass Ukraine but the original pipelines go through Ukraine and collect billions of USD/year for Ukraine. Still.

Nordstream 1 started in 2011, before that all of it went through Ukraine. In 2006 Ukraine and Russia had a spat, stopped shipments, Europe suffered, hence part of the impetus to build the Nordstreams. Ukraine lines are still operational tho, and making Ukraine big money.

N2 would probably cut that back to minimal and someone, somewhere would be very unhappy after investing a lot of cash in a Ukrainian puppet government. And it wasn't a Russian plot, Angela Merkel was a big supporter of the second pipeline that bypassed Ukraine. In her opinion, apparently Ukraine was not reliable.

Oops by me on the naming, sorry, however, not on the pipeline facts. Something is going on behind the scenes which we are not allowed to see. Someone is getting their pocketbook gored bigtime (as well as the fact that the US wants missiles in Ukraine).

This ain't no situation of "crazed madman on the loose" like the Washington Post and others proclaim loudly.

I'm kind of wondering how long Europe will be happy with no natural gas, or double-prices, just to make Washington happy ? are they just playing Stepan Fetchit for a while until LetsGoBrandon is out of office ?

Was Putin smart enough to wait until after winter so as to antagonize Europe the least ? Crush the Ukraine missiles NATO thing, then let it all cool off before going back to normal ? Because the US position here is 180* out from what is best for Europe. Biden is a fuckup, he'll be gone entirely, the US will be totally involved in the next election cycle soon and whatever he does about inflation will be a fiasco, Germany and Russia quietly open the valves and viola, Russia gets rid of the puppet Ukraine problem, Europe gets their gas at reasonable prices, and Washington proves they are fools once again ?

Looks to me like maybe someone is using their head, because invasions aren't normally an impulse purchase.

 

[john.k]

Something is going on behind the scenes we are not allowed to see?...........naaaa.......who would think that.......next youll be claiming we are being lied to.

 

[SeymourDumore]

but the original pipelines go through Ukraine

Yes, but nowadays they are as dry as a 100 year old devout nun.
Putin made sure to bypass Ukraine with the next onshore line a while ago.

Ukraine lines are still operational tho,

Yeah, Well ..
Just in case Mad-Vladimir missed it by his precision bombing, I am sure Volodimir has figured out where to plug it by now ( else why TELLING the West to STOP relying on Russian energy ??? )

So, No, that line is not operational nowadays. ( highschool friend used to run the booster pump station in Mosonmagyarovar - Hungary )

 

[EmGo]

Something is going on behind the scenes we are not allowed to see?...........naaaa.......who would think that.......next youll be claiming we are being lied to.

Well, that's a pretty extreme claim ! We have a Free Press, you know ! And I can't think of any time they lied in the pa ... well, there was the Janet Cooke thing. And Tonkin Gulf. And Weapons of Mass Destruction. And Remember the Maine ! and the Domino Theory. And the electricity "shortage" in California. And just about everything about the 2006 depression, starting in the 90's. And ...

But I'm sure they got it right this time !

 

[EmGo]

So, No, that line is not operational nowadays.

In the middle of a war ? Yeah, I can accept that

This didn't just start last month tho. No matter what the Post says, there are real reasons for Russia's behavior and Putin is not a madman.

To me, this is why the US loses every confrontation we've been involved in for the past seventy-five years. (Okay, we beat up Grenada. Be still, my heart.) The imbeciles in Worshington can't ever see the other person's side. And our side sucks, so in the end the US loses. Every arfing time.

p.s. Seymour - had to be running a bunch of gas through Ukraine in 2006 because cutting it off just about froze Yurop. And if Nord 1 was big enough, they wouldn't have spent billions buildng Nord 2. So I'ma gonna make a conclusion that even recently, lots of Russia gas was going through Ukraine. And somehow, the timing of all this is connected.

 

[SeymourDumore]

In the middle of a war ?

Much before that, hence building the expensive ones BEFORE the war.

Onshore is one thing, but it needs control.
Offshore is more expensive, but mostly go through neutral waters ....

 

[EmGo]

Much before that, hence building the expensive ones after.

Neither of us can actually know that but I addressed it above ... sorry, edited before you replied. But again, they wouldn't have spent billions on Nord 2 if Nord 1 was already doing all the work. And this whole thing happening just as Nord 2 is going to be started, mmmm. Not a coincidence, I'm pretty sure. Nobody does an invasion because it seems like that'd be a cool thing to do tomorrow.

 

[Trueturning]

No, seriously, I think you'd fit right in at State.

First off, Russia doesn't send natural gas to Europe in LNG ships. They have a pipeline. It travels through Ukraine. They pay Ukraine billions of dollars a year in transit fees, which just may have something to do with this. Last time we invaded a country it was a month after Hussein signed a contract with the rooskies instead of Brown & Root to build a pipeline to Aquaba. What a coincidence.

(You may remember them. They sent LBJ to Congress. Best government money can buy.)

Almost completed now is Nordstream 2 which does not travel through Ukraine. The US is furious about that, at least as far back as Trump and probably before. Lots of discussions about "sanctions" (aka extortion, "hey there buddy, you gots a real nice little country there, sure wouldn't want to see anything happen to it, wouldja ? Better do what we say ...") Why the US thinks it gets to tell Germany what to do, mmm, yeah. Totally innocent, I'm sure, nothing to do with this situation. Bad Putin, bad madman, crazed insane dictator ! All his fault !

And Germany doesn't have any LNG ports either, but let's just use our imagination. Let's say Russia sent an LNG tanker to Hamburg because a German company bought the gas because they need it and paid for it (oh wait ! the US says Germany can't buy stuff from Russia, so no dice ! uh-oh ! they are breaking Free Market rules by doing something we don't like !), then a Ukrainian with a smuggled missile blew it up ... and Hamburg along with it. Whom do you suppose Germany would be pissed-off at ? That would be the end of Putin, you think ? Not the clown in Ukraine ?

Yup. You're ready for prime time at State, probably jump direct to a mid-level position at $250,000/year plus bennies. You could help plan the next Bay of Pigs invasion, where them oppressed peasants will greet our boys with garlands of flowers and six-packs of beer.

Germany is the country determine how they get their energy. They chose Russia. That it can be a problem was discounted. Notice Germany remains in NATO just the same. So we are the one who brings up the issue and we bad? Schroeder started this really and he seems to have benefitted by it all. Now the fact is Germany needs its energy and who are we to complain very much if we can not supply it.

Aside from that just the same when this happens a invasion then countries have a choice to make fight or not. So things went bad and back to square one or dependent on a tyrants control and aggression. Well pretty much it is the same way things can always be.

Painted into a corner there is war. I am surprised this has not happened before in Europe. Who helps rebuild Ukraine afterward? I think Ukraine was feared by the RF as they actually had more going for it long term than the RF. Now they are being demolished of their infrastructure and expertise.

At the basic level the RF has attacked the people committing genocide openly while Europe watches. Agreements of security for Ukraine of anyone else should be in question as after a couple of presidents no one wants to stand behind it. Things change.