Mori Seiki - MV Junior Oil Air Lubricating Unit Error

[Vancbiker]

Post some pics of the units you are talking about. The oil/air unit above the spindle (behind a cove) is for manual tool unclamping.

 

[TexasMachine]

Ok. Here you go. Some of these are just random and others are to explain my current understanding of the machine.
Thanks.

 

[Garwood]

The hydraulic and pneumatic components atop the headstock- All the shit up there- Is for the toolchanger. There are two separate systems for releasing the tool, one hydro-mechanical where a barrel cam drives hydraulics and linkages to release the tool and swing the double arm during a programmed toolchange and an air over hydraulic system for when you push the tool release button in hand mode. That's what all that shit does up there and believe it or not, it works really good when all the seals and valves are working. If it's working it's a really, really bad idea to mess with this stuff unless you research it first. Several write ups on this forum about maintaining and repairing that system.

With the Mori operations book, you should have a full description in there of the pneumatic system that will define all those valves. That should tell you what they do and if you have a valve for spindle oil then you have the 10K spindle.

 

[TexasMachine]

Thanks for the information. Im going to look into all this later today. Here is the Elementary Diagram and then the file containing it and other documentation I have converted to pdf files.

MV Junior - Elementary Diagram.pdf

drive.google.com

MV-Junior - Google Drive

drive.google.com

 

[13engines]

From a fellow Mori man I have to say... that is one nice machine you've got there. Great score.

Not to discount anything Garwood said about all the stuff under the spindle hood, but keep your eye out for certain options that may or not be present. I can think of Oil Hole Drill, One Shot Lube (short squirt of tapping lube automatic within the tapping cycle) Basic air blow. Spindle Air Blow. All of these things will have their own pneumatic valve hiding somewhere. Including under the Z hood.

It's interesting to see on the Z head plate where they crowded the ball nut with a dual pair set of bearing trucks and another set up top.

 

[Garwood]

From a fellow Mori man I have to say... that is one nice machine you've got there. Great score.

Not to discount anything Garwood said about all the stuff under the spindle hood, but keep your eye out for certain options that may or not be present. I can think of Oil Hole Drill, One Shot Lube (short squirt of tapping lube automatic within the tapping cycle) Basic air blow. Spindle Air Blow. All of these things will have their own pneumatic valve hiding somewhere. Including under the Z hood.

It's interesting to see on the Z head plate where they crowded the ball nut with a dual pair set of bearing trucks and another set up top.

Never had an MV JR so can't say if they differ, but the MV-45 and MV-65 I had both had all the add on option valves for tapping fluid and coolant2, coolant 3 located off the headstock. Probably simpler to interface that way than run the wires and hoses through the cable chain to the head that way.

 

[TexasMachine]

Sorry for all the extra points, I agree completely; I would disregard everything except the 10K spindle at this point. I think that is where your issue may lay, since that is what the current alarm is for. It may be a physical/mechanical/electrical problem with the air/oil system or it may be a parameter/keep rely setting related issue.

I am fairly certain this is the air/oil unit. Here is a post from a few weeks ago discussing how to adjust and setup such a unit: Click Here
View attachment 377282

From the images of your parameters, I am further leaning to that being the problem. Someone has made a note to enter "0" for bit 1 on K02, this is the setting for the 10K spindle.
View attachment 377283

I also see where they have marked out the 4k and 10k spindle speed settings. This would be in conflict with the note for K02, and either way (with 10K option or not) this could possibly be the cause of your alarm.

View attachment 377284

There are additional options for T31 and T32 that will be dependent on selecting the correct spindle speed parameter settings.
View attachment 377285

There may be more to look into for parameters, but these are the highlights I can see from what you have posted so far. As for physical/mechanical/electrical issues, I would investigate that "possible" air/oil unit on the side of your machine. There may be an oil level sensor that either needs oil or is possibly stuck or has a loose or corroded wire. According to my wiring diagram this sensor is what is causing your alarm and it controls a contactor and is wired in on plug M18 at pin 13 in the cabinet. If you have enabled this contactor in the PLC but don't have the physical option, that would cause the issue. From the photo of your manuals you should have all the wiring diagrams to verify this.

I hesitate to even throw this out at this stage since you are not yet familiar with the machine, but that contactor could probably be engaged manually or jumped to clear the alarm if the problem is somewhere in that system. You need to verify what spindle you have first though, because that will affect the parameters you put in. I also believe your possible "4th axis hookup" in the photos is where someone relocated the factory coolant and air block to the side of the table for some reason.

I look forward to seeing this one go. She's a beaut clark!

WOW! Ive been at this for 3 weeks straight. I changed K02 bit #1 from 0 to a 1 and no more error. I am so greatful that yall took the time of day to help me out. Thank you so much.
Now im going to go back and make sure that I have covered the rest of your suggestions about the parameters etc. I will report back. Thanks again guys.

 

[MountaineerMiner]

Glad you got it going. Sounds like and looks like it is a 6K spindle based on the error resolving once K02 was aligned with the proper option. Also, with the additional photos it looks like that extra solenoid bank may be some type of MQL unit. The small cylinder with the set screw pipe plug you have identified as the spindle oil reservoir is the unclamp air over hydraulic reservoir others have described to you. You will want to make sure that is full before trying to do a manual tool change by pressing the button on the front of the machine. This was an issue on mine, if that unit does not work properly and you attempt a tool change it short strokes and doesn't release the tool and can create a bunch of work.

Im guessing your next step will be to establish a DNC connection once you have ran through the functions manually a few times and warmed up the spindle. If so, I have had good luck with this unit, Link. It has worked on multiple machines and controls for me, including the 10M.

 

[Dan from Oakland]

WoW that's a clean machine-------- enjoy!!!

 

[TexasMachine]

Spindle Video

Once I solved the oil air problem and got rid of error, i made an attempt at getting refrence points for axises set up. i can now refrence z but still havent figured out x and y playing with parameter 1850 and 1815. I went ahead and moved onto spindle because it would just twitch and hum when I would try to get it to move. This was resolved when I finally figured out that you have to push both arrows together on control to do a page up or down. This finally got me to the rest of the data adresses starting at 82 that allowed me to input spindle speed etc. Now the spindle is working but the speed is not showing up on screen. I also need to setup tool changer which holds 20 tools yet all my documentation and parameters seem to be for the 30 tool setup. I am also still curious if fanuc tape casette is worth investigating or if this was just used for the robot arm that was once used with this machine. Any insight is much appreciated.

 

[Garwood]

Spindle Video

Once I solved the oil air problem and got rid of error, i made an attempt at getting refrence points for axises set up. i can now refrence z but still havent figured out x and y playing with parameter 1850 and 1815. I went ahead and moved onto spindle because it would just twitch and hum when I would try to get it to move. This was resolved when I finally figured out that you have to push both arrows together on control to do a page up or down. This finally got me to the rest of the data adresses starting at 82 that allowed me to input spindle speed etc. Now the spindle is working but the speed is not showing up on screen. I also need to setup tool changer which holds 20 tools yet all my documentation and parameters seem to be for the 30 tool setup. I am also still curious if fanuc tape casette is worth investigating or if this was just used for the robot arm that was once used with this machine. Any insight is much appreciated.

The parameters/data are probably very similar/identical for any MV jr with a Fanuc 10M. Even a different version of the 10M. Popular machine. Might be a good idea to just ask here for someone's backup.

 

[TexasMachine]

The parameters/data are probably very similar/identical for any MV jr with a Fanuc 10M. Even a different version of the 10M. Popular machine. Might be a good idea to just ask here for someone's backup.

I have obtained a few different backups, My first attempt at getting the rs232 cable working was unsuccessful so I went through one backup by hand and entered the data and ended up at the same point with oil air error. So i felt safer going back to paper parameters included. That is a good direction for me to move since the error was being caused by special parameter. I will compare the versions I have but im thinking that the atc is mostly special parameters and from my understanding this is not included in backups. I believe the mori book has a decent walk through for setting that up. I guess my main target right now is getting xy refrenced and the spindle speed output to screen instead of displaying 0. I have had difficulty focusing on one thing at a time with this machine. Im going to set my current target for xy refrence setup. unfortunately the book leaves me with more ?s than answers on this topic but i am most likely misinterpreting the info or expecting it to be like one of the more recent lathes with fanuc controls that I have gotten used too at work.
Thanks for the insight Garwood.

 

[Garwood]

The special parameters- 9100's iirc, are entered in hexidecimal format. Have you entered those? If not, then I don't think you're going to get anywhere further than you already have.

 

[Vancbiker]

IIRC, the spindle speed screen display on a 10M equipped MVJR never showed anything but 0. Some hardware spec from Fanuc that was not included on the control package Mori bought.

 

[TexasMachine]

The special parameters- 9100's iirc, are entered in hexidecimal format. Have you entered those? If not, then I don't think you're going to get anywhere further than you already have.

Yes, I believe this is what you are referring to. I entered them in IPL mode 1-32 when before I could get into regular controls.

 

[TexasMachine]

IIRC, the spindle speed screen display on a 10M equipped MVJR never showed anything but 0. Some hardware spec from Fanuc that was not included on the control package Mori bought.

Damn, Thanks for that info. I would be digging for a solution that is not out there.

 

[Vancbiker]

Damn, Thanks for that info. I would be digging for a solution that is not out there.

There is a solution, but it requires mounting an external encoder to the spindle and then wiring the signal to the control board and possibly setting an option parameter. Since it really does nothing to improve the operation of the machine, little reason to do it.

 

[TexasMachine]

This is were im struggling at this point. I already have z referenced, im not sure if I am moving a dog for xy or changing parameter in order to get them referencing.

P-2
On Page P-2 I am not sure what it means by (Setting Values: -9999 ~ +9999 Parameter: 1851)
The paper parameters have 1851 as X=0 Y=0 Z=3.
I interpret -9999 ~ +9999 as meaning everything acceptable in that range and would input 0.
I kept 3 in the Z since Z is already referencing.

Parameter 1850 is Grid Shift.
Paper parameters have 1850 X=4920 Y=-1680 Z=-1200
I input 0 for X,Y and kept -1200 for Z since it is already referencing.

I believe I have 5220 and 5221 set to 0, which now thinking about it may be the reason for the ot alarms im getting but I have been turning them off.


P-5
Not sure what it means by properly input backlash?

We set indicator and do the X procedure and end up in the center of the table and then this is where I think im getting lost.
It says perform zero return op but that does not work, I have not done anything but determine table center for it to work?
I would expect to be putting the number im at (Center table) into a parameter but im just lost here and another issue is that I believe I should have machine set to metric which is what I think the parameter input must be to work properly.

I expect the dogs should be in a functioning location already but maybe this is what im overlooking and should be concerned with.

P-8
Do I insert these numbers from book or do I find my own numbers?


If anyone could clear this up it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[MountaineerMiner]

I also need to setup tool changer which holds 20 tools yet all my documentation and parameters seem to be for the 30 tool setup. I am also still curious if fanuc tape casette is worth investigating or if this was just used for the robot arm that was once used with this machine.

Your factory parameters and the timer and keep relay settings listed in section 3.2 should get you started on the tool changer. I would ignore that Fanuc cassette unless it gives you problems. I am little surprised you didn't get an external device alarm from the robot being detached but someone may have already fixed that or the machine is a little too old to have those interlocks; if this was a problem you would not have gotten this far already.

unfortunately the book leaves me with more ?s than answers on this topic but i am most likely misinterpreting the info or expecting it to be like one of the more recent lathes with fanuc controls that I have gotten used too at work

The book over complicates things for sure, i think its the translation. Its like scratching your ass by reaching between your legs. Wait until you read the procedure to zero set your tools, you can delete about half of what the manual says after doing it once or twice. These machines are pretty basic, once you get used to the control its easier than the newer machines in my opinion, it is less dependent on procedure than newer machines. That said, it will let you get into trouble easier too!

The parameters/data are probably very similar/identical for any MV jr with a Fanuc 10M. Even a different version of the 10M. Popular machine. Might be a good idea to just ask here for someone's backup.

I saw a build date of 1986 on one of the posted papers while im looking at documentation circa 1990. I have noted some differences in parameters between the documentation for my machine and the documentation posted for this one, how much of that is option related, i don't know. Your parameter sheets all are noted as D-825302-E while mine are D-825303-E. There were even some differences in your wiring schematics from what I have. Although minor, its worth noting there are some differences. If you have the documentation that came with your machine, that is your bible.

Yes, I believe this is what you are referring to. I entered them in IPL mode 1-32 when before I could get into regular controls.

First page has what you want, its already in hexadecimal. Good thing you have all that documentation!

This is were im struggling at this point. I already have z referenced, im not sure if I am moving a dog for xy or changing parameter in order to get them referencing.

If I were a betting man I would work out the parameters before messing with the dogs.

The paper parameters have 1851 as X=0 Y=0 Z=3.
I interpret -9999 ~ +9999 as meaning everything acceptable in that range and would input 0.
I kept 3 in the Z since Z is already referencing.

I would suggest leaving the backlash alone until you try setting the 0 return. I know the book says to do it first, but its really more of a tweak and is machine dependent, you wont be able to use someone else's. I guess there is a chance if your backlash is great enough and not compensated for you wont be able to consistently engage the latch switch for the 0 return, but I have a feeling your not there yet. For reference mine is set to X = 0, Y = 1, and Z = 6 so being at X=0 Y=0 Z=3 is a reasonable place to start. Also, this procedure is more involved than what is in the manual you are using.

Parameter 1850 is Grid Shift.
Paper parameters have 1850 X=4920 Y=-1680 Z=-1200
I input 0 for X,Y and kept -1200 for Z since it is already referencing.

This is what you need to change. To start set the X and Y to 4920 and -1680 respectively and leave Z alone if those are the values on the paper parameters that came with your machine. Again for reference, my machine has different values for this parameter, but that is just the position error difference in the machines. Im at X = 3433, Y = -3292, Z = -2590 . These values are in 0.001mm which is 4 millionths of an in. 4920 is like 0.194". The instruction is the book are for adjusting the 0 return, not resetting it which is what you need to do. If the factory setting doesn't get you there (I bet it will) you will need to adjust it as the book says. As clean as that machine is and the fact it was part of a robot cell from the 80's or early 90's it was likely only worked on by factory trained techs and has been maintained to factory settings.

P-5
Not sure what it means by properly input backlash?

We set indicator and do the X procedure and end up in the center of the table and then this is where I think im getting lost.
It says perform zero return op but that does not work, I have not done anything but determine table center for it to work?
I would expect to be putting the number im at (Center table) into a parameter but im just lost here and another issue is that I believe I should have machine set to metric which is what I think the parameter input must be to work properly.

I expect the dogs should be in a functioning location already but maybe this is what im overlooking and should be concerned with.

It means to input the backlash properly in 1851 before adjusting 0 return. Again, this is to adjust not reset the 0 return. All your doing is finding the middle of the table and using the machine to calculate the position difference of where it is supposed to be and where it ends up after 0 return procedure. The book you are referencing does not cover the full procedure for calculation and adjusting backlash. Again, keep the factory settings and move on for now, you can revisit these if its a problem after your off and running. I doubt it will be, im holding a 1/2 thou on a visually more used machine at factory specs without really trying.

You can change the readout to mm from inches in the settings page or vice versa. See video here: Video Link

Do I insert these numbers from book or do I find my own numbers?

Insert them as listed. I dont know if it matters, but the A axis on mine is input as 9999999 and -9999999 respectively; I dont have a 4th.

Send me your email in a PM. I have another parameter manual that may help you understand some of the items you may run into.

 

[TexasMachine]

I went through parameters today, still trying to reference x and y and came across parameter 1900 and im thinking this may be my problem but this parameter is locked. Any insight is much appreciated.