Moved lathe and now have taper.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I think there may be a definition issue here. My Harrison m300 13x40 lathe, made in England has four feet. One at each corner. There is a bolt to raise and lower that corner and a empty hole nearby to allow a bolting down anchor to go down into the floor.
Bill D

Edit: I just realized Tyrone is talking about the cast iron bed of the lathe itself not the base cabinet. I have no idea what holds mine down onto the heavy base cabinet. When I asked about moving it I was advised not to separate the two as they are adjusted and then putty or something bonded to stay in place.

I was referring to the clearance holes in the jacking screws in the sheet metal cabinet. Why you would need jacking screws at the tailstock end of the bed as well is a bit of a mystery. The only reason I can think of is that maybe you could buy the lathe without the cabinet so you could put it directly onto a work bench. You would possibly need the jacking screws in the bed then.
The clearance holes in the jacking screws in the cabinet are normally put there to facilitate holding down bolts or anchors. Wether you choose to use them for that purpose is up to you.

It’s usually a good idea not to separate a lathe from it’s base/cabinet.

When I was an apprentice all the lathes at the college I attended were all installed on adjustable vibra-mounts. One of the projects we had to do involved drilling and boring two holes in a block of steel in the lathe. It involved the use of a four jaw chuck and tool makers buttons. It meant the job was out of centre in the four jaw chuck and therefore out of balance.
One day while we were waiting for the instructor to arrive one of the dickheads in the class thought it would be a good idea to put the lathe on the top speed and switch it on “ just to see what would happen “. It was one of a row of brand new “Harrison “ centre lathes.
Well what happened was the lathe began rocking slightly than rapidly began to shake alarmingly. Just when I was starting to panic one of the smarter kids threw the isolator on the wall before the lathe actually fell over. Just saying.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[Doug H]

Thanks for all the responses, Millands suggestion pretty much mirrored my initial thoughts, and I did lift the tail end and let it re-settle, then went back and repeated
the leveling process. Farmersams fixture is really a great idea but the lazer level actually takes that and multiplies it greatly. instead of having a 4 foot bar, mine is essentially 20 feet long. In any case, it took the rocker action out of the tailstock, and when I remeasured things, taper was down to 3, so I re-centered the tailstock and called it good. For those who called it a noodle, yeah, that pretty much describes it. No offense taken. It will do what I ask of her if a treat her nice and don't ask for what she is unable to give. Anyways, I will pick up a machinist level and do a better job when I get a chance. For now, I am going to call it good.

 

[Sharps1874]

"Allright, don't laugh, or get nasty LOL

If you don't have a good level, and want to get the lathe into working condition.................."

I'm not laughing -- pretty clever. Kim

 

[jim rozen]

" Start by getting it as level
as possible (with a precision level--a laser level is no where near to being accurate enough) and then
do a two-collar test to take the twist out of the bed. If the taper is larger at the tailstock end the bed
needs to come up on the front right corner to push the tool into the workpiece a bit more. If the taper
is larger on the headstock end then the bed needs to come up on the right rear." (LkiethR)

Nope, you damaged the lathe beyond repair by moving it. Scrap it out and buy a new one that will work in the new place. Ha just kidding, follow the instructions above. Also:

1) remove the tailstock and set it on the floor.

2) take any levels and lasers and plumb bobs and put them away.

3) chuck up the stock and turn the collars. Adjust the levelling screws until they are within 0.001 of each other.

 

[Doug H]

For those who who dismiss the laser level or the blurb bob, I would just remind that they do the job. The idea is simple enough. Take a small measurement, and thru the process of scaling it up greatly, turn it into something you can use. While it might seem inaccurate, and it is admittedly not as accurate as a machinist level, it gets the job done. Most of us are not producing aerospace parts.

 

[michiganbuck]

This is the lathe in question. Headstock didn't move, or if it did, I don't know how. To move the lathe, I drug it by the cabinet, walking it into place by pulling one end, then the other. Floor leveling screws are all touching, and I followed the procedure outlined in the manual.. No machinist level, but I used a lazer level across the ways, pointed at the opposite wall, so any misalignment shows up greatly amplified. I won't say there is zero twist, but I think I can safely say that it isn't enough to cause this much misalignment.

I don't think setting on those sticks is a very good way to have it set

 

[Doug H]

I don't think setting on those sticks is a very good way to have it set

It isn't sitting on those. That picture is from when I picked it up at the warehouse. It is sitting directly on a concrete slab

 

[dcsipo]

This is the lathe in question. Headstock didn't move, or if it did, I don't know how. To move the lathe, I drug it by the cabinet, walking it into place by pulling one end, then the other. Floor leveling screws are all touching, and I followed the procedure outlined in the manual.. No machinist level, but I used a lazer level across the ways, pointed at the opposite wall, so any misalignment shows up greatly amplified. I won't say there is zero twist, but I think I can safely say that it isn't enough to cause this much misalignment.

A laser level will have a spot size of about 1/16" 10 feet away. While it is important that you use the right side of the spot each time, a ten-arc second tilt will cause a 0.005" displacement at 10 feet away. Hardly something that you can easily measure on a wall, but the same can be easily measured with a precision level. If you do not have a precision level see if you can get a foot of precision ground rod, say 1" or thicker. (chromed piston rods or linear guides will do) Chuck, it up as centered as you can at the chuck and a foot away. After you leveled the lathe with the laser, run an indicator along the test bar, and adjust the tailstock leveling feet till you get close to zero. Then test it with the two-collar method posted by Richard.

 

[4GSR]

The picture of that lathe looks like the one HGR had for sale earlier this year at Ft Worth. Probably not a bad deal, but he mentioned the tailstock didn't sit on the bad ways squarely. Had a little rock to it. That would be very noticeable. To notice that would mean one of two things, it has one hell of a twist in the bed which I doubt. Second, he bumped the bottom of the tailstock and damaged the ways and or knocked the tailstock out of adjustment. Remember, the tailstock has the two piece base that allows you to adjust for taper and most likely this got knocked out of alignment.
Yeah, the original poster needs to get him a precision level to start with. He can get a half decent one off eBay for under $100 that is supposed to be good for .0005" in 10 inches!

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The picture of that lathe looks like the one HGR had for sale earlier this year at Ft Worth. Probably not a bad deal, but he mentioned the tailstock didn't sit on the bad ways squarely. Had a little rock to it. That would be very noticeable. To notice that would mean one of two things, it has one hell of a twist in the bed which I doubt. Second, he bumped the bottom of the tailstock and damaged the ways and or knocked the tailstock out of adjustment. Remember, the tailstock has the two piece base that allows you to adjust for taper and most likely this got knocked out of alignment.
Yeah, the original poster needs to get him a precision level to start with. He can get a half decent one off eBay for under $100 that is supposed to be good for .0005" in 10 inches!

It could also mean that it might not be the tailstock that originally came with the lathe.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[Bill D]

I really need to level my 13x40 lathe. How much level do I need for this? It is roughed in with a carpenters level and seems okay for now.
Bill D

 

[Doug H]

it is the original tailstock, and it sat fine before I moved the lathe, and it sits fine now. The tailstock rocking was what informed me that something changed significantly after the move. picking up the tail end of the lathe, and then setting it back down resolved that issue. Moving the lathe as I did created some stresses that allowed the bed to twist/bend/whatever. It has been resolved. For the record, that is the lathe that HGR had at Ft Worth.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I really need to level my 13x40 lathe. How much level do I need for this? It is roughed in with a carpenters level and seems okay for now.
Bill D

A level in the 0.001”in 10” range should be enough for a small lathe like that. That was my ” go to “ level. Now and again I had to get the 0.0005” in 10” level out.

Regards Tyrone.

 

[4GSR]

............... For the record, that is the lathe that HGR had at Ft Worth.

The reason I said that I almost pulled the trigger on it! It was a little bit too light for my needs. From what I recall, it was in very nice shape for its age. Ken

 

[dcsipo]

I really need to level my 13x40 lathe. How much level do I need for this? It is roughed in with a carpenters level and seems okay for now.
Bill D

A typical framer's spirit level is accurate to within plus or minus 0.5 millimeters/meter, 0.005 inches/foot, or .029 degrees (104 arcsec). Compare that to a machinist level where the main level vials have graduations of approximately 80-90 seconds or .005" per foot (0.42mm per meter) and can be used as a measuring tool instead of an indicator. A Master Precision Level level must be accurate to 0.0005"/foot/graduation and be at least 15" long per federal requirements FedSpecs A-47271. The setup with a framer's level is about 20 times less accurate than a setup with a Master Precision Level. If you want to verify your setup, use the two-collar method.
.
One more note on a framer's level. They may only meet their specifications if the entire length of the level is used. Using a 24" framer's level on an 8" bed may be ⅓ as accurate.

 

[Richard King]

When I was rebuilding machines fulltime if someone called me to come and level their lathe I asked them if they used coolant? If they said yes, I leveled the machine. If not I got it close so the oil reservoirs worked and I got it probably .010 + or - . What I did was to align the ways using a level to compare the chuck end to the end of the tailstock end. How do they level a a slant bed lathe? Or how do they level a lathe on an ship? If you think of a level being a comparator it's easier to figure this out. Your comparing one location to another.
They don't, they take the twist out of the bed so it cuts straight. On many of these new Asian lathes the top of the cross-slide is ground flat, so I set my Starrett 199 .0005"/12" precision level on there and level it both front to back and end to end if it uses coolant. If not I adjust the bubble on the level so the bubble centers up. I have the saddle as close to the head-stock as possible. Oh make sure the leveling screws are sitting on leveling plates and there is an equal amount of weight on them using a wrench. Then I crank the saddle to the tailstock end and adjust the TS end so it reads zero. It may take a few times back and forth to get the bubble to stay the same. Once it's the same on both ends I lock the nuts on the leveling bolts. .

On the short machine like a 14 x 40 and they don't use coolant, all I do it the 2 collar test and don't use a level to compare ends. Many times I twisted the bed out of alignment so it would turn a shaft only in the chuck that cuts a tapper. Above I added the You Tube show that Adam booth did showing the 2 collar test to tweak in bed to compensate for the wear.

 

[John Garner]

There are laser levels, and there are laser levels. A $20 no-name laser level from a cheap-tools store is a whole different animal than a Hamar laser level.

Ok, the OP almost certainly isn't talking about a tooling-quality laser level, but as a long-time user of higher-end laser-based measurement systems I am fully fed up with numbskull managers who can't grasp that a $50 laser level from the big-box store won't be adequate to set up a 20+ foot assembly fixture for an aerospace structure.

 

[Doug H]

There are laser levels, and there are laser levels. A $20 no-name laser level from a cheap-tools store is a whole different animal than a Hamar laser level.

Ok, the OP almost certainly isn't talking about a tooling-quality laser level, but as a long-time user of higher-end laser-based measurement systems I am fully fed up with numbskull managers who can't grasp that a $50 laser level from the big-box store won't be adequate to set up a 20+ foot assembly fixture for an aerospace structure.

This is true. We had levels we used for underground tunneling that were accurate to a tenth of a foot or so at a quarter mile, tho that was putting them at the end of their ability. Even refraction in the air diffused the point and caused it to move around a bit, but you just adjust for it. The one I used for leveling the lathe was of the cheap variety, but I didn't use it to obtain perfect level. I just made sure the bubble was centered at the headstock end, marked where the lazer hit on a wall 20 feet away, and then matched the tailstock end to that point on the wall without even looking at the bubble, For those who question whether or not that is adequate for a home shop, I invite you to try it. Is it within a thousandth, probably not. Can I measure any taper on my parts now. No, I can't. Mission accomplished for the moment, tho I may revisit it once I pick up a precision level. For now, I see no need.

 

[EPAIII]

Good first step. And the second step should be to bolt it down to ONE and ONLY ONE spot on the floor. Concrete is not known for flatness and if it moves, even a fraction of an inch, things can change.

After that there are written procedures for leveling the ways with a precision machinist's level. Laser level is OK for carpenters, but it will not split the thousandths, even if used across the room. Leveling is only the next step. Testing by turning a cylinder is the final alignment.

At the end even the thinnest shim is not fine enough and you will wind up torqueing the front and rear hold-down bolts differently to fine tune it.

Really good chance it's twisted, even if sitting on all the leveling feet. I'd guess that the cabinet mount is pretty wimpy (no offense), so doesn't give any additional stiffness to the bed, which is fairly light in my opinion.

Rich knows better than me, but if I were doing the fix I'd try lifting the tailstock end and placing it down again to remove any "pinching" from uneven force applied during the move, then start the leveling process over again, perhaps with a further lift and drop if it's off a lot. In other words, try to keep any elastic stress (spring) out of the system.

You need a precision level, even one of the cheapo Chinese units would be better than a laser level. But if you do other work that could benefit from a precision level then going on Ebay or whatever and getting a 199Z or equivalent would be a good idea.

 

[EPAIII]

We are talking about tenths over 10 or 12 inches. Sighting down wood sticks just ain't gonna cut it.

Two cents...

In woodworking the way to hand plane a twisted/warped board flat:
Cut two 1/2" square wooden sticks longer than the width of the twisted board.
Place a stick on each end of the board at 90 degrees.
Sight down the length of the board and the twist can be easily seen by the sticks.