MTB's Mazak and Matsuura ?

[Houdini]

On recommendations of MTB's I don't see a lot of people recommending Mazak or Matsuura, have seen a couple bad responses to Matsuura. Have seen a lot of wish lists with a Mat though.
Haven't ran either, some of my prior apprentices work the local Boeing and Mazak is there larger go to MTB, even though I am told the Makino is the best choice from them.
I have been looking at Matsuura for their MAM-72-35 Don't know if these are Japanese built, but also been looking at the Mazak horizontals due to the expandable linear pallet system.
pros/cons of these MTB's, war stories...?

 

[Garwood]

I just have a small shop, never bought a new machine. I've had a few older Mazaks among other Japanese machines. Never had a Matsuura, but looked at a few.

IMO, Mazak is not a great MTB. They don't specialize enough. They try to be good at doing everything from lasers to mills and lathes and mill turns and they end up making some decent stuff and a lot of so-so stuff. I've never looked at a Mazak and thought "Boy, that sure is a well thought out design they got there". Mazak's always look crude to me. The way they run the wires and they make a lot of machines that have to be disassembled into multiple sections with large weldments that all bolt together and not a ton of thought into how all that shit's going to line up. Most Mazaks look like cheaper machines to me.

I would rate Mazak as an OK builder in general, but they don't do anything great.

From what I've gleaned over the years Matsuura is kinda like Kitamura. Some aspects of their machines are really top notch and they specialize enough to build some real top notch stuff, but they aren't quite great in every way. The recent threads on new Matsuura spindles being absolute shit and them not standing behind them comes to mind.

Makino is on a different level way above those two.

 

[Kingbob]

I'm a Mazak guy and I agree with the above. Mazak is a "full line" MTB. If you want to tool up a whole shop and have the same control through out the shop than they are for you. The Mazak philosophy is not right for every shop and I agree that the machines aren't "special". A company like grob or the like that focuses on a particular set of problems is going to make a better 5 axis but is that better machine worth having to deal with a different control. That's up to the end user.

 

[Houdini]

What MTB's seem to be ahead in the game? I keep seeing reference to Okuma, especially in reference against Fanuc and memory issues, but a Windows OS, WHY?, YUK!! Port to Linux.
We are a small Haas shop, and I am done with Haas, it would be nice to keep all the same controls, but not a deal breaker.
Doosan (DN Solutions) seems like the next up, as far as cost, but I dont want to mess with a half assed machine again, quality is my #1 concern, reliability, chip management second.
We have an old (30yrs), tiny, Nakamura box way lathe, and that thing is built like a tank, I have ran a old Daewoo, and Morei and this thing is a super well built machine, will probably out live me.
This makes me want to buy another Nakamura lathe, the fact that they only make lathes is even better, high focus.
I am looking at replacing the VMC,s but would like pallet pool machines, horizontals 400-500mm and pallet pooled 5 axis machines.
recommends?

 

[huleo]

Because the only lines being discussed are top of the line, I think any comment like "they are OK but lacking in certain areas" should include specifics. Lots of armchair experts. We don't own but have run several big Mazaks. I can't say I can really complain about them, but I was running their biggest 5 axis. They seem to push the HP right on up there, and their speeds are competitive. Unless you are really full production (5 axis never is), you will never be able to quantify another 200ipm rapids.

You will be splitting hairs with lots of these machines. I tend to look more at the control side, what they "include" and what are "optioned", as well as how serviceable they are, and how proprietary their parts are. Some of these MTBs business model is realizing they have to compete on that new sale, and they are aggressive about it. But they also know they 'got ya' once it is on your floor. How about $50k for a Grob spindle? You all want to get in on that? How 'special' do you want it?

 

[Houdini]

Because the only lines being discussed are top of the line, I think any comment like "they are OK but lacking in certain areas" should include specifics. Lots of armchair experts. We don't own but have run several big Mazaks. I can't say I can really complain about them, but I was running their biggest 5 axis. They seem to push the HP right on up there, and their speeds are competitive. Unless you are really full production (5 axis never is), you will never be able to quantify another 200ipm rapids.

You will be splitting hairs with lots of these machines. I tend to look more at the control side, what they "include" and what are "optioned", as well as how serviceable they are, and how proprietary their parts are. Some of these MTBs business model is realizing they have to compete on that new sale, and they are aggressive about it. But they also know they 'got ya' once it is on your floor. How about $50k for a Grob spindle? You all want to get in on that? How 'special' do you want it?

This is correct in things need context, I am just trying to move up from Haas, which is any MTB, But I am also not making high tolerance aerospace or medical parts, "not making the space shuttle" was a common phrase.
But, at the same time, don't want to pay more money for just different problems.
I want a single MTB that I dont have to mess with the machine all the time(Haas), chip evacuation, coolant issues, breaking down, surface finish issues.........But you also don't want to buy all Makino's and never see your money back because you only make $40k a month.
In our area the MTB's common are Haas, Doosan, Mazak, Okuma. Grob and Makino but too expensive, I would never see that money. Matsuura isn't local.
I am kinda all over on Okuma,
CONS:
Windows YUK!, port to Linux its not the 90's. interface have heard love and hate.
Strange Gcodes
They make all their own components, (expensive?, hard to get?, long lead times?)
Only the entry level machines are priced competitive.
No large pallet automation systems on Horizontals
Their entry level 400mm HMC cant make my 24" long parts which is our largest volume production part.

PROS:
Windows YUK, interface have heard love and hate
Have heard it doesn't have memory issues like a FANUC system(makes me not want a FANUC system, scary never had a issue, but have only used it on a 2 axis lathe)
They make all their own components, no finger pointing when things don't work.
heard its a top tier MTB, high quality high accuracy kit.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Mazak is a decent machine, IMO. The Mazatrol is what really makes it. Lots of folk like it and there is the advantage of having the same control in the shop on different machines.
DN Solutions (Doosan) is a decent machine also, I used to work for them, and they make a good machine. Fanuc controls (mostly, some other options on certain models) and decent support.
Matsuura looks like a good machine, but I've never run any. They seem to be big on automation and pallet changers. The big issue is Yamazen service and support, which, allegedly, can be spotty.

I run Okuma in my shop (and one vintage Mori, but that's different), and love them. The OSP takes a little getting used to but is, IMO, superior to the others. One stop responsibility for things. Super high accuracy (I hold tenths all day), and a top quality build. The price is the downside, of course. But if you can swing the $$, you're getting a top drawer machine.

 

[Garwood]

I have ran a old Daewoo, and Morei and this thing is a super well built machine, will probably out live me.

BTW, Daewoo is Doosan is DN Solutions.

In reference to qualifying what I'm talking about with Mazak- I have owned two Mazak lasers about yr 2000 vintage and they are shit. "Mazak optonics" is a shit division with totally useless fuckhead techs. You have to call panasonic or an independent tech to get useful help.

I have been around several 2000's era integrex machines in shops. They all hated them, they were not really good at anything and very hard/expensive to repair.

I have owned two Mazak M4 CNC lathes. These were decent machines, good for my use, but they are a pile of shit compared to something like a Mori TL series from the same years. Very poorly thought out chip control. Enclosures sucked big time.

I almost bought a Mazak H400 with a pallet pool. It was pristine. It needed a spindle, which they failed to disclose before my inspection and why I didn't buy it. I followed up on the spindle and found that machine had had it's 10K spindle rebuilt every few years since it was new and it was a huge job to R&R.

 

[Houdini]

BTW, Daewoo is Doosan is DN Solutions.

In reference to qualifying what I'm talking about with Mazak- I have owned two Mazak lasers about yr 2000 vintage and they are shit. "Mazak optonics" is a shit division with totally useless fuckhead techs. You have to call panasonic or an independent tech to get useful help.

I have been around several 2000's era integrex machines in shops. They all hated them, they were not really good at anything and very hard/expensive to repair.

I have owned two Mazak M4 CNC lathes. These were decent machines, good for my use, but they are a pile of shit compared to something like a Mori TL series from the same years. Very poorly thought out chip control. Enclosures sucked big time.

I almost bought a Mazak H400 with a pallet pool. It was pristine. It needed a spindle, which they failed to disclose before my inspection and why I didn't buy it. I followed up on the spindle and found that machine had had it's 10K spindle rebuilt every few years since it was new and it was a huge job to R&R.

Thank you for the details, gotta love details,
Yeah I knew Daewoo, Doosan, DN, Thanks though, some might not know.

 

[cnctoolcat]

Garwood, yes the engine-lathe-style M4's and M5's with their open designs certainly have chip containment and removal challenges. They are rigid workhorses though.

Mazak built some of the best machines they've ever built from the mid-80's to around 2000, when the newly-engineered "Nexus" series debuted.

The venerable 8" chuck QT15 (later QT20) debuted in 1987 with the T-2 control (I have two here at the Cathouse), and was built up to the early 2000's. The first in a new-generation of linear guide machines by Mazak, the QT15/20 is probably the most sold (and copied) CNC lathe ever made.

And similar-era QT28/30/35's were built-like-tank linear-guide lathes, with tool eyes as standard, and fully-programmable box-way tailstocks with hydraulically-extendable quills. (Can you tell I'm a satisfied user?? haha)

We run (4) mid-90's QT28N's with T32 & T-plus controls at the shop every day. They have 45mm NSK linear guides in both X and Z, the 40"-travel, fine-pitch Z-screw is 50mm diameter and driven by a 5hp Mitsubishi direct-coupled servo motor. The spindles are driven by 30 horsepower motors through a multiple v-belt (10 & 12) single-reduction counter-pully system, and thus the machines can take about any cut and push about any drill you throw at them.

On all these QT's of that era, the wiring was oversized, all external-to-the-cabinet wires are encased in stainless-braided conduit, the hydraulic units have 20+ gallon tanks and oversized pumps, the ballscrews are double-lubed (in case the primary circuit clogs) and have air-pressurized ball nuts (to keep contaminants out), cabinet coolers were standard, muffin fans were everywhere, ...you get the idea.

Of course new generation Mazaks are nice, but certainly not as overbuilt as the older machines. For example, most of the new turning machines use the next smaller size linear rails for the X-axis (possible due to advancements in linear guide design and manufacture, although I don't like it), the ballscrews are not as large in diameter, and the hydraulic tanks and pumps are smaller on the new machines.

Even the spindles on the newer-generation Mazaks aren't as robust as the older machines! All the Mazaks since the introduction of the Nexus series have integral spindles, with a set of duplex-or-triplex thrust bearings on one end, and a single tapered roller bearing on the other. The 90's generation Mazaks with multiple V-belt-driven spindles have an additional tapered roller bearing on the chuck end (right beside the thrust bearing set), and has a larger tapered roller bearing at the rear end, to handle the forces from the belt side-loading.

I still think a belt-driven spindle can have rigidity and dampening benefits simply from having tensioned belts constantly attached!??

As far as the modern day "ultimate" CNC lathe from one of the common builders, I'm thinking the box-way machines from DMG-Mori are it. Okuma makes some damn nice turning centers from an electrical/mechanical standpoint as well. Of course there are the somewhat niche builders like Nakamura that produce some really nice, top-shelf CNC lathes also.

Lathes fascinate me.

ToolCat

 

[BOB-OO]

BTW, Daewoo is Doosan is DN Solutions.

In reference to qualifying what I'm talking about with Mazak- I have owned two Mazak lasers about yr 2000 vintage and they are shit. "Mazak optonics" is a shit division with totally useless fuckhead techs. You have to call panasonic or an independent tech to get useful help.

I have been around several 2000's era integrex machines in shops. They all hated them, they were not really good at anything and very hard/expensive to repair.

I have owned two Mazak M4 CNC lathes. These were decent machines, good for my use, but they are a pile of shit compared to something like a Mori TL series from the same years. Very poorly thought out chip control. Enclosures sucked big time.

I almost bought a Mazak H400 with a pallet pool. It was pristine. It needed a spindle, which they failed to disclose before my inspection and why I didn't buy it. I followed up on the spindle and found that machine had had it's 10K spindle rebuilt every few years since it was new and it was a huge job to R&R.

IMHO,
I love my 2000 Integrex, but we don't crash them, 22 years old, still holds .0002" reliably. We make lots of 1-10 quantities and machining every side in one setup is game changing- awesome. Mazak has parts & support even for something that old. Programming w mazatrol is very fast and easy to modify. We have 2 cam systems both usually take slightly more time on 4-6 sided simple parts then mazatrol. Running a Fanuc after is very annoying- too many keystrokes to do everything. We just bought a new Integrex Smooth Ai, multi turret, multi spindle. I like them alot and have Mazak, Makino, Kitamura in the shop now. We can and do troubleshoot our own issues which have been limited to a servo here and there, one spindle 10years ago(Mazak), pressure sensor & servo(Kitamura),

Don't be afraid of Windows on your controller, its not like a pc(no updates), you'll never want to go back to a unimproved fanuc, never had any reliability issues. Makino's front end is excellent and hides the pokey Fanuc inputs. Never owned a Hass so I can't really compare, but we don't spend much time fixing our machines, we feed them grease, way oil and metal.
Good Luck!

 

[Houdini]

IMHO,
I love my 2000 Integrex, but we don't crash them,

I think this is a good point also, We don't crash machines here either. I know that is a strange thing to say, and people will argue. but I am a systems person. and everything here is done a certain way,
we have systems for how everything is done, and with that the machines just don't get crashed. Haven't crashed none of my 5 machines in 5 years, neither has my 21 year old son who never ran a machine before,
but I taught him to program and setup and run the machines under my same systems.

 

[Houdini]

Programming w mazatrol is very fast and easy to modify. We have 2 cam systems both usually take slightly more time on 4-6 sided simple parts then mazatrol.

I have been working as a tool and die engineer/machinist for too long, been in CAD/CAM world since 18, you wont catch me programming a machine in any type of conversational, even if it is awesome or faster, just a preference.

 

[EndlessWaltz]

Houdini-
If you are doing hard turning etc...go with a Doosan Boxway(or the nakamura). You could transfer over most of your HAAS programs and make minor changes to just a few codes typically at the beginning and end of the program and you are off making chips. If you were running Haas...I highly recommend the next step up which is Mazak for lathes. The newer Smooth control is a godsend compared to the HAAS nextgen crap. The buttons are very crisp and the touch screen is sweet. The best part is you can dump your HAAS code into that too and run it in EIA. IF you are looking at...like ST20 type lathes doing light work go Mazak or Doosan Lynx maybe. Ask yourself this...does Haas even make a twin turret twin spindle machine? Nope.
On the Horizontals...can they really be worse than Haas? Maybe not the best but....

Best part, no more transformers at every machine taking up valuable workspace.

 

[Houdini]

Houdini-
If you are doing hard turning etc...go with a Doosan Boxway(or the nakamura). You could transfer over most of your HAAS programs and make minor changes to just a few codes typically at the beginning and end of the program and you are off making chips. If you were running Haas...I highly recommend the next step up which is Mazak for lathes. The newer Smooth control is a godsend compared to the HAAS nextgen crap. The buttons are very crisp and the touch screen is sweet. The best part is you can dump your HAAS code into that too and run it in EIA. IF you are looking at...like ST20 type lathes doing light work go Mazak or Doosan Lynx maybe. Ask yourself this...does Haas even make a twin turret twin spindle machine? Nope.
On the Horizontals...can they really be worse than Haas? Maybe not the best but....

Best part, no more transformers at every machine taking up valuable workspace.

No hard turning, last place I worked bought 2 new Haas lathes , ST30 & 15 and they are so loud that even with ear pro that I wear at the shooting range I couldn't be in the shop with them running.
I used to be a car audio tech so I brought in a spl tester and the sound levels were such to damage your ears in less than 10 minutes. So with that I would never buy a Haas lathe even if it was the best lathe made.

 

[Nagol]

Wanted to mention just since it wasn't said but Mazaks from about 2000 and newer are Windows based as well. That being said I am a Mazak guy as well, Horizontal mills mostly. I Love the things but only other thing i've really know was a Bother S2D tapping center. From what I understand on Integrexs the old ones are stout but can be finicky, The 640MT control ones will not sustain a crash at all, B axis goes straight to shit when you wack it. However the Matrix and Smooth control machines should be pretty good. From my experience the Smooth control is really nice too.

 

[Houdini]

I just talked to my prior apprentice at Boeing, he said they like their Mazak's and said maintenance was easy. he said they have Makino, Mazak, DMG, and Milltronics, they are getting rid of all the Milltronics machines, and he said NOT to buy DMG machines, said they are expensive junk! He said the operators like running the Mazak machines, but they also have separate maintenance people, and they said they(Mazak) were easy to work on. Most are 2004-2005 machines.

 

[Kingbob]

EDIT: Maintenance is another concern in the long run. I've had mazaks for 12 years now and I am getting pretty familiar with working on them.

I just talked to my prior apprentice at Boeing, he said they like their Mazak's and said maintenance was easy. he said they have Makino, Mazak, DMG, and Milltronics, they are getting rid of all the Milltronics machines, and he said NOT to buy DMG machines, said they are expensive junk! He said the operators like running the Mazak machines, but they also have separate maintenance people, and they said they(Mazak) were easy to work on. Most are 2004-2005 machines

I've got my nit picks with mazak and I assume nak makes a better lathe and grob makes a better 5ax but what ever I get next it's probably going to be another mazak and probably will be for life

 

[Houdini]

EDIT: Maintenance is another concern in the long run. I've had mazaks for 12 years now and I am getting pretty familiar with working on them.


I've got my nit picks with mazak and I assume nak makes a better lathe and grob makes a better 5ax but what ever I get next it's probably going to be another mazak and probably will be for life

What sux, as with all products being made anymore, is things are more technical, software and programming wise, more capable, but the actual machines/products instead of being made with "Ours is better, or the best" They are being made with, our cost's less, is cheaper for maintenance parts...My wife says I should have grown up in the 50's, But I want some old school built to last a lifetime type of shit. And the truth is, I dont think that exist's anymore, even in this industry.
So now I'm just trying to fill in my needs as best as possible, its just me and my 21 year old son, and I dont want any employees if at all possible, or as minimal as possible. I want to start buying Horizontals with pallet pools, and 5 axis with pallet pools. or if the part needs a robot cell. between me and him, we currently run 5 machines, So I think we could easily run a mix of 4-6 horizontals or palatalized 5 axis machines.
But I dont want to mess with the machines all the time, So need quality, over profits, don't want the Frankenstein shop of a bunch of different controls either.
I'm puulin my hair out trying to decide between realistically Doosan, Mazak, and Okuma, Now I know everyone says Okuma, but their 400mm horizontal is a couple inches too small for a part we run non stop all year. and the next one up is over $100k difference, and no expandable linear pallet system that I saw. Same with 5 axis.
Mazak has a linear expandable pallet systems, and so does Doosan, and Matsuura.
People scarying me with the small memory issues on a Fanuc make me not want that.
So then its Okuma and Mazak, and with the Okuma limits, it is pushing me to Mazak.

 

[cwhuffman]

The debate about what machine tool builder is best or better than others can be wildly subjective based on a number of different factors. I live in Western North Carolina, and there has been a large Haas following here for the past number of years. Out of the first 10 machine shops I can think of in this area, maybe only one or two do not own at least one Haas. However, many of these companies have grown or grown out of what a Haas is capable of. It seems many of the companies that I know of around here tend to sway more towards new Doosans or Okumas, due in part from the large presence of Ellison and Okumas US headquarters being in Charlotte. That doesn't mean that other machine tool manufactures cannot be found, for instance one company local to me processes aluminum castings and they own 11 Makino Horizontals and another company off the mountain own 50-60 older Mazaks.
I am what you would call a legacy Haas user, I have ran other brands of machines and spent a good bit of time on a Prototrak bed mill. I have always had decent luck with the Haas Mills that I have been around, but they were always taken care of and were never ran very hard. That being said, I have not had very good luck with Haas lathes. They are loud, clunky, and not very powerful/rigid, honestly the only thing going for the Haas lathe is the control commonality.

When I went about looking for a turning center for my own business, I wanted to stay away from Haas as much as I could and I looked at Doosan, Mazak, and Okuma. I could not afford each manufactures top tier machines (Puma, Quick Turn, and LB respectively) so I looked at their commodity offerings instead. I had originally wanted to go with a new machine, but I could not get the financing lined up to suit, but was able to get something used. At the end of the day, I went with a Mazak QTN 250MS because it had linear rails, integral spindles, and good phone support and parts supply (although expensive parts).

We can argue all day about whether rails or box ways are better in a machine tool, obviously the box ways will be more rigid, but the rails can be adjusted/replaced in the event of a major crash. The integral spindle motors are nice as well, they are quiet and extremely powerful in a compact unit. Again, are they better than a belt driven spindle? Up to choice. The biggest drawback to the Mazak/Mitsubishi spindles that I have found is when something goes wrong, it ends up being expensive to get them repaired. I had the sub-spindle on this machine rebuilt and after it was torn down it was discovered the windings were shorted out which required it to be rewound, the bill for that ended up being about $15k. I have had excellent service from some of the local Mazak techs who will respond to my emails or phone calls regarding any questions I have about the machine or problems that arise, something that can be difficult from other brands...

At the end of the day, all of these machine tool builders make a machine that will work for you depending on what your application is. They are all going to break and cost you money at some point, but the key to that is will they be there to help you get it sorted or leave you sitting on your butt with a dead piece of scrap iron. I do think as builders like Haas continue to listen to their bean counters and cheapen the machines, it will continue to open the market up for other builders to come in and take away their customer base. Just my perspective.