My dilemma.....Y axis lathe w/sub or invest in pallet system for 2nd ops?

[david n]

So either way I'm sending the old SL20 down the road for either another 2x Lynx or a Yx Lynx w/sub lathe. I'm looking over pile of parts that I produce to see how well they'll lend to a Y axis lathe................my choice would be a no brainer for the Yx lathe if'n I didn't have the Speedio...............but that thing is so lightning fast for 2nd ops.........either it's a part with one or two drilled and tapped holes that take less than 30 seconds for 8 parts in 2 double station vises(4 per vise).............simple clamp/unclamp op.........1000 2nd op parts in a few hours. Or it's more complicated parts that if palletized, I can load up the Speedio with a ton of parts and get nice long run times that will still run waaay faster than on the Yx lathe..............or it's parts where the 2nd op requires more milling HP, rippems, and tool size (large cross holes or large LOC or too many tools) than an Yx lathe can offer.................and a twin turret twin spindle is not a option $$$$$................

Now I'm coming down to yet another 2x lathe...............but dropping some cash on a decent pallet system for the Speedio.............and I mean a manual pallet system. I'd like to get all my repeat parts on fixtured pallets so I can grab tools, programs, offsets and run with it.............two pallets per part, one running and one unload/load.

So my question is, am I not giving a Yx lathe enough credit? And if I run with the pallet idea..............what brands? Not really familiar with anything out there other that I looked a bit at the simple vise pallet stuff from Orange vise................

 

[GiroDyno]

Are you a job shop or making your own products?

If you have a limited variety of production part numbers (and have the time for it) you can do some pretty powerful stuff with macros. Using the probe to figure out what part # is loaded, how many are loaded, adjusting offsets... to the point where you have a universal style pallet for all different parts and just load any random pallet and press go, let the machine pick the program, count the parts, and run.
If you have a lot of variety (job shop) that may not be an option...
On the other hand bar feeding and done-in-one on a lathe is about the most straight forward automation there is.

We make our own product here and the more I experiment adding probing and logic to existing processes the more opportunities I see to improve others. The cycles might not be the fastest, but the process is reliable enough that any employee can go to any machine and they can reliably make parts all day.
As far as a pallet system goes... I already had Orange double station vises on my old Brother so I used the Orange pallets for high density fixtures. It worked fine if I was swapping pallets every 10 minutes, but if I was swapping pallets more frequently I'd probably invest in something easier/faster to change out like the Pierson system that's just a button to lock/unlock. Now we have a R650 so the machine does the swapping instead.

 

[pcasanova]

I'm a lathe guy so I'm a bit biased to the lathe but that being said looking at your situation I would have to look at quantities. If your running small lots on the lathes and have a bunch of mill jobs I would look for the pallet system would be money better invested in that direction.
But if you have large quantities on the lathe you can keep it going dropping complete parts while you worked on the mill or watch the grass grow while the lathe just goes. And once you have the y-sub and start to see whats possible and the parts you can take on there's no looking back

 

[AJ H]

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the lathe being slower if it runs unattended because it's scalable. I do a lot of production turning at lower rates because as long as it's MAKING money while I'm sleeping, I'll just add more machines if I can't keep up.

At a past employer, I made my own pallet system pretty quick and easy. I bought the center jaw pins for double station Kurt vises and bolted them to a ground receiver then made pallets with handles. Losen two bolts a half turn to remove, tighten two bolts a half turn to replace.

 

[Garwood]

I don't have a Brother or a Y axis lathe, but when I see these comparisons and I see guys adding a manual pallet system to a VMC I always wonder why a manual pallet change setup is appealing at all VS a machine with a fast rotary pallet changer?

Pallet change machine runs all the time like the barfed lathe. Pallet change machine doesn't suffer a rigidity loss or location issues like manual or retrofit automatic (like Midaco shit) does. When pallet change machine swaps pallets you have cycle time of the parts in there to unload and load the other pallet. There's flexability there- I can finish my phone call or unloading the truck, then go swap parts. The machine is not waiting on me to keep things moving along.

I guess I made old slow machines work for a long time and still do, but they have pallet changers and dense fixtures.

I vote R series Brother or fast HMC and the Y axis lathe. But it's not my money.

 

[chad883]

I would have to say it all depends on the parts you are running. A big part of that is how many tools you need to make the parts. Will the lathe have enough tools? We have 5 Y axis lathes and 2 Integrex machines. The really nice thing with the Integrex is have 40 tools on the small one and 120 on the big one. They also have a Mill spindle in them that has 10K RPM. I have my turn tools stacked on the Y lathes. I use 1/2" shank tools with one up and one down., then move Y-1.0 to use the one tool. This is to open up a tool pocket.

If your material can run for 12+ hours with out needing changed, it may be worth it. If you need to change inserts every 4 hours, you only get that much "free". I think if you run lights out the lathe would win, but that means bar feeder, and probably part conveyor. That would have to be added in with the price.

As for pallets, they are great. If you get a high density fixture made you might find that it takes just as long to load all those parts as it does to machine them. And that means someone is standing there tending that machine. For through put with the staffing a mill wins IMO. for through put with minimal labor the Y lathe wins.

 

[Comatose]

For simple second op stuff (face off, put a chamfer in, maybe drill a few holes) I really like the pierson pallets, but you've gotta plumb in your own foot switch. The little hand valve they ship it with is beyond useless. The setup is cheap enough that it's probably worth getting one and a couple pallets and see how you like it.

That said, everything that I can run in a Y axis lathe rather than a mill, I do, because the tending labor is so much lower. A mill with pallets, if the operator has to pee or answer the phone or deal with another machine, the machine stops. The lathe just keeps chugging.

 

[Orange Vise]

If parts can be run to completion on a Y-axis subspindle lathe, nothing else comes close and shouldn't even be in contention. My record for uninterrupted cycle time on a Y-axis lathe is just shy of 2 weeks, around 310 hours.

That said, the pallet system gives you flexibility when parts can't be run on the Y-axis lathe.

 

[Ox]

Well it will be cheaper to run the two basic machines, if you have the man hours available.

If I know your operation well enough, I don't think that you have a magazine bar loader, and that is one place that you could get more hours from existing, rather than adding.

The more work that you have per part for secondary opp, the more efficient running the 2nd machine will be, but if you can git it done quickly on first chucking, then not so much. The more work (tools/operations) that you have to doo on any one part in the lathe, the more tool pockets taken up, and the more live holders that you need to buy. A Y/sub machine can run out of pockets quickly.

No clear winner, but one of them will take more man hours.
If you have them available, use them?

But I love my twin/twin lathes!
But even with that, the job that I just put on my Y machine - I just decided tonight that I need to run some of it in a mill for it to be accurate enough for the application. I don't recall that actually ever happening in the last 20 yrs, but it happened tonight.


Orange - you didn't have to change tooling or anything in a week?
I once loaded one of mine up and left for the weekend with prox 32 hrs of material in it, and it was done when I got back, but that's the longest I have gone to date. (and that was 20 yrs ago)

Must'a been alum?


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Orange Vise]

Orange - you didn't have to change tooling or anything in a week?

It was an aluminum job.

I did add coolant, and reloaded the bar feeder several times, but the machine kept going.

 

[LOTT]

David, we use the Delta pallets on the Orange vises, for a bunch of our repeating jobs just like you said. It's not as fast as Pierson, but if you're already using Orange it's super flexible and easy (and cheap), and you can keep using the vises as vises. We make our own pallets, buy some 2"x6" aluminum and knock out a pile to have as needed. For most parts I only make one and reload in the machine.

I don't have a Brother or a Y axis lathe, but when I see these comparisons and I see guys adding a manual pallet system to a VMC I always wonder why a manual pallet change setup is appealing at all VS a machine with a fast rotary pallet changer?

Regarding the R series/pallet changers- at the price we paid for the S500's an R650 would cost around twice as much. I feel like two single table machines give me more flexibility then that one pallet changer, but YMMV.

That said, those R650's with a spindle gripper and then a 4th on one pallet and a tray of parts on the other is pretty awesome.

So my vote- Y axis Sub lathe, AND the Orange pallets (since the cost to entry is low).

 

[DavidScott]

If at all possible I would vote for the lathe. I did the pallet change thing with a single table mill for many years. I had the spindle down time to 15-30 seconds swapping fixtures. No issues with location or rigidity either. When I did the math on how much time I would save with a Brother rotating table mill I came up with 92 hours a year just in swapping fixtures, which is pure labor, my pure labor, and that is with around 650 spindle on hours a year. That is just to swap fixtures. That does not include the improvements I could make to my fixtures if they stayed on the table which would reduce the time it takes to swap parts. It also doesn't include the time lost when the machine finishes and I am not right there to swap the fixture, which in the real world is way more than the 92 hours a year. Swapping fixtures on a fixed table mill is something I would do everything I could to avoid, it is a complete waste of labor, unless that is your only option.

I finally got a R650 this year and the improvements of having a rotating table are well beyond what I imagined, it totally changed the way I work, and I haven't started to upgrade my fixtures yet. When I was getting quotes the R650 cost about 1-1/2 times more than a comparable S500, but it does have the 22 tool chain vs the turret and more X axis travel so not a very good apples to apples comparison.

 

[wheelieking71]

I don't have a Brother or a Y axis lathe, but when I see these comparisons and I see guys adding a manual pallet system to a VMC I always wonder why a manual pallet change setup is appealing at all VS a machine with a fast rotary pallet changer?

Pallet change machine runs all the time like the barfed lathe. Pallet change machine doesn't suffer a rigidity loss or location issues like manual or retrofit automatic (like Midaco shit) does. When pallet change machine swaps pallets you have cycle time of the parts in there to unload and load the other pallet. There's flexability there- I can finish my phone call or unloading the truck, then go swap parts. The machine is not waiting on me to keep things moving along.

This right here ^^^^

If that Bro you already have makes your eyes wide Dave? Wait until you spend some time with a Bro "R" machine.

 

[Cole2534]

I have my turn tools stacked on the Y lathes. I use 1/2" shank tools with one up and one down., then move Y-1.0 to use the one tool. This is to open up a tool pocket.

Interesting.

 

[Philabuster]

If your material can run for 12+ hours with out needing changed, it may be worth it. If you need to change inserts every 4 hours, you only get that much "free".

Mazaks can be programmed in the tool data page to switch to a redundant tool when the tool is used N number of times or X number of minutes in the cut. You can setup a whole slew of redundant tooling if you want in the Integrex. This only works with a Mazatrol program though.